#16 - Discovering Leadership - Ross Abbate

Welcome to Discovering Leadership with Ross Abbate

For the final episode of Season 1, we're joined by Ross Abbate, CEO of Macro, one of the world's leading facilities management and workplace experience businesses operating across 49 countries.

From his early days struggling through his first role in FM, to leading a global organisation and shaping strategy across multiple continents, Ross shares the leadership lessons, career decisions and mindset shifts that have defined his journey.

This episode is a fascinating conversation exploring leadership, resilience, networking, culture, confidence and what it really takes to succeed in a global business environment.

In this episode expect:

• Ross's journey into facilities management and the challenging first six months of his career
• Why "another day, another challenge" became a mindset that helped shape his success
• The importance of backing yourself when things aren't going to plan
• A brilliant performance incentive strategy that transformed team engagement and results
• His move from Australia to the UK and the career opportunities that followed
• The networking advice every FM professional should hear
• How introverts can build meaningful networks without pretending to be someone they're not
• The story behind becoming CEO of Macro and the challenges that came with stepping into the role
• How leadership teams build strategy across a business operating in 49 countries
• Why the best business plans allow room to adapt and pivot
• Ross's approach to handling pressure, uncertainty and responsibility as a CEO

This is a fitting finale to Season 1 — packed with leadership insights, practical advice and honest reflections from one of the industry's most respected leaders. Whether you're just starting your career or leading teams across multiple regions, Ross's perspective offers valuable lessons on growth, resilience and the power of staying curious.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, welcome to the final episode of season one of FMX. It's me, Mark Robinson, here again. Hope you're well. You'll have seen lots of content from us recently as we were at the workplace event all of last week. You'll be pleased tonight that my knees have recovered. However, my brain hasn't really so if I make any mistakes on this podcast, please forgive me. It's not intentional. Anyway, we're here for another one of our special episodes of the Facilities Management Exchange, where we're discovering leadership across the facilities management industry. And it gives me great pleasure to be joined today by Mr. Ross Abate, CEO of Macro. How are you doing, Ross? You alright?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Really well, thank you. And thanks for inviting me to this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

No problem at all, mate. It's an absolute pleasure to have you. Um we've obviously done a podcast before, haven't we, Ross? We have many, many rooms ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

We did, indeed, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

This time you're on camera though. How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I hate being on camera. Camera is my worst enemy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Oh mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

As long as you've got my good side and you can filter it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

No, we haven't drinked.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Well, the worst thing is these lads here sit me here on purpose so that it is my bad side, because I have a terrible side on view, so people have to put up with that, unfortunately. It's a laughing joke in the internet.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I'm the same too, so I don't think there is a good angle.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

No, no, there's bound to be a good angle, mate. That's what my wife tells me anyway. She makes me feel good every time I go home. Don't worry, love, you look fine. But listen, thank you very much for joining us. Um, obviously, these episodes that that we're producing and delivering focus on that specific, very key area of leadership across the facilities management um sphere. Um, and the reason that we wanted to do this was to give young people um some insights really on some of the decisions that people such as yourself have to take, some of the learnings that you've had um throughout your career, and also where you think the industry's going and what advice you would give to those people looking to move into the space. So let's start with what's your name? Where do you come from? And tell us a bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Ross Bate. Yeah. Born and bred in Sydney. Yeah. As you can tell from the accent, sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Um, moved over to the UK first time around in 96, and then moved back to Australia, and then back here in 2006. So been working um in in the industry since then.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I came into the industry in 96 by accident.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Electrical engineer. Um, came to the UK, needed a job, got a job with a company called the J and D organization, who were a cleaning company. Actually, cleaning company way before their time. Really? They were really, really ahead of the time. They were a partner to ProCord at the time.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Um, and they had just sold a security contract to News International. And um and they had sold this great technology called finger scan on how they're going to do access control. Yeah, yeah. My background in electrical engineering, I'd been doing um project management and control systems for security systems in Australia and all that. So um I got a job and to install this finger scan system, which was an Australian system. It wasn't that good.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Was it what was that biometrics then?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Biometrics, yeah. So it measured the veins and the in your in your blood flow and all that.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, because that's heat and cold dependence sometimes. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Which doesn't really work in the UK. No, no. Especially in uh a paper, like it was paper-based, you know, it was News International. Yeah. People would have, you know, come in working from the press or and stuff like that. Ink on their fingers, dry fingers, all of that type of stuff. Anyway, we found a different technology. We installed these access control systems, um, worked really well, and I thought that'd be it. I'd go and find myself another job. Yeah. And the CEO, the the owner of the business, said, Look, you're pretty good with clients. Why don't you come and work here and do some FMing for me?

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I had no idea. And I ended up being put onto a site, um, BP Sunbury. Right. With the time because I was a supplier to Procor. Yeah. And suddenly I took over 50 cleaners and 50 other mail room stuff, landscape and um fabric maintenance.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

The whole soft services.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, and I still remember it was my birthday because it's the worst day of my life. Because I remember I got home on my birthday, and at by seven o'clock, eight o'clock at night, I was in bed because it's just that bad a day. Yeah. I didn't know what hit me. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Really? And that was your first day, the first day in FM.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

First day in FM, in rural FM, yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Yeah. Well, it's not like that for everybody, let's be honest, Ross. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

But it it it it it it just opened up my eyes to a totally different world. You know, I was 26, 27.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

So quite young then.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah, yeah. And and and and being given this, and you know, you got people who are twice your age, people towards the end of the careers, people knew what they were doing. I you know, professional cleaners, really good team. Yeah, but um, and and yet I had to somehow earn their respect and manage them, yeah, which is yeah, unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

That's a big undertaking, though. 50, like 50 odd people, day one, yeah. Coming from you know what is a mechanical background, really, in terms of electrical engineering. Yeah, electrical background, yeah. Well, mechanical engineering, it's all the same thing at me, mate. You know, be careful though. No, no, no, no. There's a two thing. Don't fly across the table, Ross.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

No, but it but that is, but it is, you know, because usually when you look back at it, I guess I look at that, okay, but I never look at things like that. You just go, that's another day, you know, it's another challenge, another thing. It took me, I've got to say, probably took me, with the support of the organization at the time, probably six months before I thought, actually, I've got this now. I've got it. Do you know what I mean? But even then it w I didn't have it, but I felt more comfortable in what I was doing.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

What was day two like though, Rod? Like getting up the next day and then going in, was there was there trepidation? Were you like, I can't do this, I don't want to go. How how did you push through it? Because if it took six months, I'm guessing from day one to that six month period, there were some really challenging times, yeah, but you just persevered through that.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

For me, is um you just gotta take each day as a new day. Yeah. And the, you know, you can't you you're thinking the next day will be better, the next day will be better, the next day. And slowly it does happen. I think you've got to also back yourself that actually I can get through this.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

And um, you know, and I did put my hand up and said, look, I'm struggling, I need some support, I need some advice, I I you know, you know, and then and then I guess what I did was I got my hands dirty too, and and actually I went and did cleaning and understood what they were doing. Yeah. And the fact that I was able to go and I wasn't talking to them but working with them. Yeah it helped. And and and and you know, I like to think that, you know, that I actually they saw value in me. I mean, it was quite interesting because I took over this site and and to be frank, they weren't a really good people trying to work, earn a living, you know. They they were minimum wage, and at the time I think it was five pounds twenty an hour for cleaners, something like something like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

That's a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

And when you look at that, you're thinking that's not a lot of money to earn. And there are people that earn you know that type of money today. And and they all wanted to, of course, increase the pay packers. So I actually worked with them and said, how can we do this? Yeah, and but but what was happening is they were doing all this overtime, which we weren't charging for, so the business is suffering.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

So we actually changed it a little bit because we actually there was a really good KPI performance metric system there that we had with the client. That if your KPIs over a year increased by 10%, the the team were entitled to almost a month's worth of salary in incentive. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. And all of a sudden you said, Do you see these keeper KPIs on the wall that are not gaining anywhere? You've got three months to get them to 10% because that's the end of the year. Yeah. If you get them to 10%, you know you get equivalent to about a month's money extra. Oh my god, the performance changed immediately. Because they they could see it. Yeah. Because on one hand, I'll stop in their overtime, but actually, if the client paid for overtime and if uh they were meeting these KPIs, there was all these things. So it's about looking how do you solve the problem from their eyes. And their eyes, all they wanted to do was work and earn more money, and they and they were great operatives, they just didn't have the right, you know, what am I saying, the means to do it, if you've got what we mean. And I guess that was my role is to create that where you're balancing what the client needs to what they needed, and you're the medium trying to balance the two. No different to what you do today, actually.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

No, but that's a little bit like that's sometimes about how you deliver that message as well, isn't it? Because it you could have you could have met delivered that message the right way or the wrong way. The right way, they did what you expected, they they got motivated, you incentivised them, they they went out and achieved that. The wrong way might be I'm not doing that, I want my overtime. So it depends how you, as that that leader of that group, actually delivered.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

And I didn't get it right the first time because the first time I probably just said there's no overtime. Yeah. And then everyone's, you know, like you said, I'm not doing that. You're not even getting my overtime, you know, you know, stop and all that. And then you start to realize what their problem is, and you start to listen to what their issues are, and then you go, okay, I've got to solve their issues. I mean, I found I became an agony aunt in some ways. You know, someone would come in the morning and go, I can't come to work tomorrow because my electricity meter hasn't gone and I need a fiver to get that going to do that. So you started to, you know, against all advice, you lend someone a fiver, or you do this and you do that, and you start to trust people.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Whether it's right or wrong, and people say it's wrong. For me, it kind of worked. Do you know what I mean? And and that got people coming and stuff like that, you know, coming into work, doing what we had to do and stuff like that.

unknown 9:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

So anyway, that's how I got into industry.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Yeah, but quite an important lesson to learn from the get-go, though, as well, Ross. Just you know, and that to me, has that taken you onto the next level in in your career? Did that kind of set you up from a leadership perspective? Did that did that did that get you going? Did it light the fire in that?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I I think uh I don't know. I don't know from a leadership. I always knew from an early age that I wanted to lead something, right? I always wanted to have my own business to be honest. Yeah, but I never thought the opportunity would really come, right? I and and do that. And and I never actually had the I don't know, I never took that step to go, I'm gonna run my own business. You know, uh probably years ago I could have stepped out of my corporate career and said, I'm gonna do this. And I just never had that. It's a big risk that though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Really? You know, if you're doing well in your career and you've got and you know, I think obviously you'll have had younger children and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah, and and you're in a different country and start and I and that never really stopped me, but uh, you do look at the whole dynamics of that, you know. This is a safe journey, yeah. This is that, but I always knew that you get through. I guess for me, like the hard work and all that, that was instilled in me from a young age, you know. Dad, dad and mum were both migrants to Australia, they met there. Yeah, but my dad used to work 16 hours a day, so work was something that was standard.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Do you think that the same for me um growing up in Yorkshire, you know what I mean? Like you work the work ethic. I remember my dad just drilled it into me, you know, mainly because he was telling me off for having none. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

But but I I I just think it was it was funny we were talking about I like university, I hated university. I like I like university, the social side, yeah, I like doing labs, I like doing you know practical things, I hated lessons. Yeah, and I just didn't have the the I didn't like studying, I didn't like doing any of that. But give me something to build or something like that, I would have done it all the time. I would spend you know, we used to spend nights at the university, 24 hours sometimes, building stuff to show, you know, to do stuff and like that. But yeah, but yeah, I didn't never like the study bit. No, no, I'm saying but the work ethic was there, if you if you get what I mean. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

So what what we what did you go to university to study?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Electrical engineering, that's why I picked you up.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I know there's a hierarchy. Electrical, mechanical, oh really, and then civil, which is what my son is. Also, civil's the bottom. Of course. It's a joke we have in house. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

You might get beat up when you go to the bottom. No, no, we'll do, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

No, no, they're all they're all equally good, but electrical's the hardest.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and probably the most dangerous as well, to me.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

It is dangerous. And and all jokes aside, you know, even when I was um working when I was really young, because I did what it's called a sandwich course, yeah. You work for six months and study for six months. Yeah, someone passed away, electrical, um, where they just and this is the owner, so we used to do, I was working at a company that did um they're called magnetrons and the big, big um microwave ovens. Okay, microwave ovens as big as this this room. Really? Yeah, and and and this was uh had molass molasses going through and it'll dry it up, so it'd cook it and stuff like that. I won't I won't tell you what else it dried up, but it used to be that top stuff. No, it did. It did what you were talking about earlier. Right, okay, and um anyway, and and there was a fault with it. And this is the owner of the business has gone and and probed to see, you know, to measure the voltage, and at that high voltage you have like a step-down voltage, it's like a thousand to one. Yeah, so it might only show a one on multimeter, but it's actually a thousand, and something went wrong, and he touched it, and he and um his legs were touching the rail and he just got electricity and died instantly. So it it is a something you don't see. Yeah, I mean that's so that that teaches you really uh early on about being safe and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Was he quite a young fellow as well?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

I I don't know. I mean, I was 19, so anyone was old compared to that. But I think he's probably in his 40s to be fair.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Really, but seeing that as well, that yeah, that's I didn't see it.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

I just I was just part of the you know. You part of the team, you heard about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

But even still, that that instills well, it just goes on, you know, health and safety, crucial, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

No, exactly. It just you just don't realise when something can hit you. That's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Well, hopefully nothing like that ever hits us, mate. Yeah, exactly. Um, and God bless him and his family, to be fair. Challenging time. So obviously, you went to university, did electrical engineering, not mechanical or civil people. No, no, don't want to get that wrong. Um, you then moved to the UK, which I mean that takes a certain amount of courage to leave the country you can.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Think about it. I didn't basically as my wife, oh right, my girlfriend at the time, yeah. Oh, so you followed a woman, yes, age old old story of man.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Age old story of man, fair enough, fair enough. So, and and then obviously you ended up in FM. What was the next move for you in FM after you'd led that team at News Corp?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Um, so um so I actually moved back to Australia and I said and I vowed to get out of the industry, yeah, and um and get back into electrical engineering. Yeah, and so there was um Johnson Controls had just moved to Australia.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

I know Johnson Controls, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah, I put my CV into Hayes, right? Hayes had just gone to Australia. There was an English lady that had just gone out there from the UK to start the Hayes business out there.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Um she picked up my CV and gave it to a guy called Chris Hunt. Right. Chris Hunt was sent out by JCI. He'd gone out with JCI to group that he looked at my CV, he did, and because Procor ended up back in the UK, Procor got bought by JCI. He basically did a reference check and said, All right, that you're the type of person I need. Yeah. And he gave me a job and that's and I got bought. So you ended up with FM FM in the UK, in the U in Australia.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

They travelled 14,000 miles to get away from an industry that you ended up back in anyway.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Exactly right. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

And was it different in Australia as opposed to the UK?

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Um, yeah, I mean I don't think so. We were it was interesting when you're running bids and all that, we're just taking the UK stuff and putting it in there because it was more advanced in the in the UK. It wasn't really an industry in the US in Australia yet.

unknown 15:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

So you were kind of developing that industry in the way that we did it, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And how did it be? So you had cleaning companies, you had you know, you had facility services, you didn't have facilities management as such. So it wasn't an industry per se? Oh, you there was an industry, but I don't think the whole workplace experience, the whole workplace, all of that was there. But also Australia's got a lot of space, so you don't have to worry about you know what's your workplace environment. It wasn't as big a deal at the time there.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah, yeah, because you can build out in Australia, can't you? Whereas in the UK, we we're all having to build up at the minute, aren't we, from a space perspective. Yeah. Okay, so how has that has that now changed in the Australia? Is it more alike to what we experience from an industry?

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, I I think you go through pockets. I don't know, I was talking to the other day, and you know, they were saying at one stage Australia was leading the workplace experience, you know, globally. Yeah, and then and then and they didn't realise, and then you know, people I think it depending, you know, depends on organisations how they drive it. Do you know what I mean? Because I think Macquarie did a lot of work out there. Yeah. And of course, then that comes around the world. And now I know JP Morgan have done a lot of work in New York, yeah, and then they come do work in, you know, so I think it moves depending on who's driving it.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Is d does it move with people as well, do you think? Do you think people move around and as they move around, so does their dynamism and ideas in relation to the industry?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

It does, but I also think we've got a really small industry. Yeah. So so if I take that example with Chris Hunt, he didn't know me, but he could do a reference check back in the UK because the industry's so small. Do you know what I mean? And you can do that. And and when I came back, it worked the other way around, actually. I contacted someone at JCI because I'd left JCI in Australia and gone to a company called Resolve. Chris moved to Resolve and he took me with him.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Um, when I came back to the UK, I contacted JCI, and um and once again, I I still remember, I won't mention names here, but I went for an interview with someone and she said, You will never get a job with JCI, you just don't fit, you don't fit in their culture. Really? The next day I went and met JCI through my through the connections, and I was offered a job by the end of the week. That's crazy. So it just shows you just never know, do you?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yeah, no, not at all. So so you who in terms of your network, let's let's stick to network because I think network is something that's quite important, um, particularly in this industry, probably more so than most, actually. Um networking is a key tool to developing your career, it's also a key tool to starting your career in this space. What type of advice would you give to people that uh that that that are looking to join the industry from a networking perspective? Are there any specific groups that you think that they could get involved with that would be beneficial?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I I think if you're studying and you're young, getting to the whole the whole young leader networks, yeah, start to do that. I'm not gonna pick, you know, there are different there are different um organizations, you know, there's Ifma, there's iWFM, there's CoreNet, there's all of those, right? So there's a lot, yeah. So so pick one and start to build your network in that. Right. But I think networks are really important. And for me, I I was uh so we had um this morning um this thing that we do called leadership lattes where basically anyone in the business can s sign up, ten people, and they have a we have basically have a coffee over a coffee we talk about, they can ask any questions on the EMT, the executive. I think I've seen that on LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think I'd like to couple of it. And um and I got asked a question this morning, you know, about you know what, you know, what are the some of the career things you would do? And I would say the biggest thing is building a network. I'm I'm always a believer, is I don't know everything, but I might know someone who who can help me solve a problem.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

So do you know what I mean? And so, like even talking today, where you said, well, we've got a national network now, national cleaning. Well, I know I'll come to you when we're looking for a national provider. Do you do do you know what I mean? It uh it that's you you you listen, you learn, keep it, always know someone who can help you. And your network's really important.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

I wasn't even pitching you there with the case. I know you weren't card based.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

No, but you weren't, but but that that's the point I'm trying to make, is you weren't pitching at all. But for me, is okay, now I've got that, I know where I can go.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

It's there, yeah, yeah. You've got that assistance if you need it. That's very interesting. I mean, I agree wholeheartedly. I mean, I mean, I'm quite well networked as well. It's been it's been a huge part of my career. Um, and and to be fair, a lot of these people that that I've dealt with for the last 20 years, they become my friends, you know, and and I think that they become your professional friends, and then they're more inclined to offer assistance, to offer advice. To I mean, I help people with presentations if they're going for jobs and and things like that, you know, and people help me as well if I ever need it. And you know, having that network to lean on is so important, um, you know, and finding that from day one. If I was to give myself the same advice, I would say exactly the same thing you are get involved with some kind of networking group early and really go for it. Like, because probably for the first five years of my career, I don't think I did it well at all, you know. Like, not not in the way I would do it now if I was given if I could go back in time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

It's kind of but I think you also gotta there are different people types too. So I I'm an introvert, yep, and and actually I hate Ganton networking events and all that.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

I know, and I love it, and I miss five years of it. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah, whereas I I'm not keen on it, but but for me it's about find the way that works for you. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So you do go to these networks, but maybe you're better off in smaller groups, so you know, when they've got committees and get involved, and yeah, here it is. I mean, I did I did um IWFM judging for a while, and that was for me was a good way to build a network up because actually I didn't have to go and meet people because I also hate fake networking too. I hate when when you go to networking events and people look at your badge and then they decide whether to talk to you or not. Yeah, that's not a good either. But but a lot of people do it, and and and I've seen it actually uh you know, you go to New York and you do a networking event, it works like that. And there's a lot of people that just walk around just looking at who you are, and they won't we'll talk to you or won't talk to you depending on on that. I bet that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

I'd I mean I've And I hate that. Yeah, but look, I'm a sales guy, man. Nobody wants to talk to me, to be fair. I have to try and elicit every conversation. But I imagine, as someone like yourself, I I I imagine that that could be quite frustrating, you know. Um, I mean, I never do that. I I'll talk to anybody, you know. Me too.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

And uh I'm not I'm not talking to people because I'm trying to sell or anything like that. I'm talking to people I'm just interested to understand, learn more, different perspectives.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Well, it's the only reason I've got a podcast. I just like talking to people, I like I like finding out their stories or how they did X or how they did Y. Um, and we learned some interesting. Stuff about people when we do that, to be fair. Yeah, I bet you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, look, all right, so tell me, obviously, let's talk a little bit about Macroy because Macro is an incredibly important, important element of your career. Um, obviously, you're now the CEO. Talk us a little bit about that process because I know it was quite interesting, it was part of a wider organization. Um, you were part of a team that came in and changed that. Talk us through that and tell us a little bit about what you learned about that as well, because uh it's an MBO, a management buyout, quite a complex thing to do for an international business as well, not a national one. Tell us a bit about that, Ross.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

So um Macro is part of the mace group. What was the mace group at the time? Um is that no than Mace Macro from the Yeah, so we were named our name was Mace Macro originally, yeah. And then we went it and you know, when Bill Heath um was because Bill Heath started it with um Gary and Peter, I mean Bill wanted to call it Macro and dropped the mace because he wanted the standalone business name. In 2020, we you know, when I became CEO, we um brought it to Mace Operate. It tied in with the mace and therefore started being called Mace. But anyway, there was um the group decided, you know, I'm now in hindsight, the group had decided they wanted to divest a couple of their businesses and we were one of them.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Um so the opportunity came to put an offer forward. Um and we were fortunate enough to be able to, you know, do a deal to do that. So yeah, in 2023, I should know this. What are we in now? 26. Yeah, 2023. Yeah, it's been a wee at 34. Yeah, 2023. We um we I think it was 23 or 24. Yeah. We're in yeah, 23, I think it was. Yeah, November. We um we we did a management buyout first of November, we were a standalone business. We had nine months of it being as part of the the group, but we had to kind of separate. So um, which is quite interesting because when you're part of a bigger group, and you know, MACE is a two to three billion pound business. Huge group.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I mean, you just walk around London, you see them everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Yeah, they're everywhere as a construction business.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Um, as a consultancy business, they're all over the world, they're in 80 countries. Yeah, and so you always got that what I call you've got that um wrapper around you. And and and actually up until that day, you know, MACE would set a strategy, this is what we want to do. And me as CEO is you take that, adapt it, and go, this is what it means for the FM business. Yeah, of course, yeah. So so the first thing was separate. So new IT system, new HR system, we had to find new offers, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

None of them small projects either, individually, all quite significant.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

No, no, when you get a new ERP system in your business, people not only do we have to get it, but we had to be up and running with it in nine months. Yeah. That was the cutoff.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

And was that rolled out around the world as well? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So we had So that makes it even more possible. So we had to get a whole IT system. So, you know, even just the infrastructure, like just stuff like Windows, all of that, we had to start all over. Laptops, we had to get new laptops, we had to bring new laptops. So I guess when you think of it that way, there was a lot to do. Yeah. But we just got on and we did it. And within nine months, was it perfect? No. But we got to 80, 90 percent. So so and we're up and running, nine months in, we're up and running in our new office in Liverpool Street.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

And um, and of course it's global. Yeah, you've got a management team, we bring everyone together, and then and then actually you realize there are some people who don't actually want to be for a smaller organization, they want to be in in larger organizations. So they decide, okay, they want to move on. These things happen. So then you're starting to go, okay, that's interesting. So you've got that natural attrition as well. Yeah, you've got natural attrition, but some people want to work for bigger organizations, some people, you know. So so that there was that change happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

This episode of FMX is proudly sponsored by Macro, a leading facilities management and workplace services provider that operates in over 45 countries worldwide. Working with many of the world's most recognizable brands, Macro helps organisations get more from their buildings, whether that's improving operational performance, ensuring compliance, or creating exceptional workplace experiences for employees and visitors alike. We're also delighted to welcome Macro CEO Rossa Bait as our guest for this episode, where we're exploring leadership, innovation, and the future of facilities management. But enough from us, you're already halfway through a brilliant FMX episode featuring the Macro CEO Rossa Bate.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Let's get back to it. And then of course you go, okay, what's our strategy for the next three years? Yeah. And of course, up until then, all the time, someone else had kind of set a group strategy. Yeah. And now you've got to set a and now you've got to set it, and you're going to.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

And you guys are responsible for it. It's got to be successful.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, you've got to go, what's the direction we're going? So, so and like you, you know, we as um Dan Emery would say, we were a startup with 23 years experience.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

But we were a startup. And and so, and then you had to get a marketing person in, you had you know, there are all these things that you took for granted that actually you're starting to do yourself. And then, of course, like every business, you've got to grow. Yes. You've got to go out, and and then you're not supported by a big group anymore. So the biggest thing was could you buy would someone buy you when you're not part of the Mace group?

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Once you root to market, yeah, yeah. And how do how do you articulate who you are?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Well, it's not it's not only that, is you had the backing of a two billion to three billion pound business. Yep. Now you don't have that backing anymore. Yeah. You're a 140 million pound business.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

How you know the same, it's not the same. So your target clients are probably slightly different. Yeah. You're starting to, you're right, and what's your real value proposition? And and then, yeah, and then and then of course you've got to develop the strategy. So that was the other thing we did. And then actually, as an EMT, we all had to step up also. Because up until then, everyone had in, you know, we're getting instructions from the group. Yeah. Now, HR, you're setting the policy. Yeah. Finance, you're setting the policy. Yeah. Commercial, you're setting. So that was a bit of a learning curve for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah, yeah. What what do you think the the biggest challenge out of all of those things was during that period?

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Um, probably stepping up as a team. Yeah. So we'd we've done a lot of work with some coaching and stuff like that to get us to work better as a team and to become united in that.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

So it was more like that collective response to the changes within your business and how you all work together, um, not as individuals, but coming together as a team and being aligned. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

And collaborating. Exactly, yeah. And we and we and we are, we're we're a solid team. Yeah. Look, we're not perfect, you know. We have a we we bicker and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

But just come out of a board meeting, mate. We did the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah, no, but you do, and but that's that's you've got to be curious and you've got to challenge each other because you're all got you're all on the same direction to to go there. And it's not for everyone. Not everyone wants to do that role. Not everyone wants to, you know, but if you do start to sacrifice you know, time, yeah, you know, and you put a lot of energy in and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Okay. So how many countries, sorry, how many countries do you guys operate in at the minute? 49. 49. So so how did because obviously that that to me adds another complexity to to anything that you were trying to do around, you know, just distance, um, communication strategy. How do you um you know even you know adequately communicate your strategy to other countries where perhaps that's very English isn't the first language and so on and so forth. That must have come with quite a few challenges that you had to overcome as well from a leadership perspective.

unknown 29:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

It must have taken some real out-of-the-box thinking as well, Ross.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah, see, I don't I I don't know. Maybe I I simplify things, right? Yeah. That's the engineering in me. You break it down little pieces. So for me, is you just we just started with um, so we do things like global calls, yeah. We do like um SMT briefing with senior management team where we get them, you know, we get on a call once a month and go, these are the things that are coming up in the business. So so we've started these calls, so there is communication going out there, right? Um, but even leadership lattes, you hear it from a different point of view and stuff like that. But um, but for me, it's just been uh you just try something and it doesn't work, it doesn't not work, and you grow out. I I I get it. There is, you know, the things that really work really well is when you do thank yous for people. So we had awards last year, but even then you can't please everyone, but you do please people where we got people in and people won awards from all over the business for living the purpose. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So so for me, they're the things is how you engage your people and people start to listen. Yeah. And and then you've got line management. So for me, this is like line management, you know, where you know people are accountable for different people. Yeah, and you know, I get out, I try and meet teams where I can, you know, you try and get teams to cross with different clients you know, because teams are different clients, we try and get them to cross-pollinate so they get to meet other people and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

So so I think it's trying everything, trying all these different things to try and get people to communicate and be engaged with the business.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Yeah. And as a um and I this is me, I just find this interesting personally myself. As an international business, does your leadership how often would your leadership get together in person? Do you do it annually?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

So we do it every six months. So we've got one next week, actually. Okay, so I bring in it no just in um Hampshire. Oh, Hampshire. That's not bad though, is it? Yeah, Surrey Hampshire porter. Is it Surrey Hampshire porter? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

You used to do it under come along, mate, help out, up it do some after dinner speaking.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Welcome to. We've got a barbecue, we've got a barbecue on Tuesday night if you've got to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

I'm there, mate. I'm there, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

No, I've done it. No, no, no, no. So not only are we getting our leadership team together, we're also getting some of the next layer of management in, also, because we're studying our business planning for so our financial year ends in June.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

So we're studying business plan. So everyone's presenting their business plans for next year. So we've got a three-year strategy.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

We're going into year two, yeah, and this is and this and I've got to say, this is the first time we're doing it because the first year was I set the business plan, I set the strategy almost. Now everyone's had a year of we're learning it, is what's working, what's not working.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

We know where we've got gaps in our business. So, what's your business plan to try and close the gaps and get us online?

SPEAKER_02 32:18

It's important to be able to pivot in the areas where you need to pivot. Um, because I think sometimes with a strategy, people get too wedded to it. We've got to stick to it, it's got to be rigid. No, it can't be rigid because things are going to go.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Conditions change, and I'll give you a really good example: Middle East. Yes. You know, you know, Middle East, um, Paris is doing a really great job in trying to grow that business, and suddenly there are issues, political issues.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

A war breaks out. A war breaks out.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Technically, yeah. Depending if you're insurance or not, whether they call it a war or not. But yes, yeah, a war breaks out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Suddenly her PL is hit by it because it's like being COVID there. Schools are stopped going, you know, people not spending money and all that. You don't foresee that when you set a three-year strategy, do you? No, of course. So so you've got to pivot and go, okay, what could do can we do differently to help that, or how do we support it somewhere else?

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah. Because obviously we're pals on LinkedIn. I see that during when when the start of that conflict, kerfuffle war, whatever you want to call it, you were actually in um the Middle East, weren't you? So you you you you were kind of stuck there for a for a time.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

So we went out, so it's going back to about engaging colleagues. I'd gone out to do IFTAs with the team. Oh, lovely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

And I was gonna fly out on the Saturday. So we did two IFTAs, one in Oman and one in Jubilee, which it is really nice. And they, you know, it's for me, I love learning about different cultures. Yes. And and how it all works. Anyway, meant to fly out on the Saturday, on the Sunday, and of course on the Saturday, the war broke out.

unknown 33:42

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So I was stuck for about a week and a half, a week and a bit. It could be worse places.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah, it's not bad, is it? The I've I've heard the hotels are alright.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

No, the hotels are good, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

But in terms of from a leadership perspective, though, did that did that create any worries or concerns or um I guess action that you had to take that you wouldn't ordinarily have taken? Did you have to think on the fly with the thing?

SPEAKER_01 34:05

So the concerns were how does it affect our Middle East business in that the individuals? Because actually, there were there were missiles being shot down above Jubai, there was missiles Oman across Saudi. People were getting injured, so we had to make sure we we had some debris on one of our schools that we were maintaining, all of that. So you had to put some plans in place around that. And of course, people are concerned. I mean, I was I was, you know, you got two extremes. I was, and maybe I'm a little bit blasé, but I just it is what it is, you know. You get on with it. But there were people who are really concerned, so you've got to cater for that and understand that. And then and then actually, as it's gone on, is what's the ramification in that? You know, how does it affect supply chain? How does it affect so we've got a a risk register of, you know, like for instance, silly things like but in Australia you can't get PVC plumbing at the moment because of all, I mean, you couldn't for a period, because of they couldn't manufacture it.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Because they can't have the oil to make the PVC. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

So so for me, is we then went around the business and going, okay, what are the risks that we have? What's gonna where are we gonna so so we're we're ahead of that? Yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

But quite an interesting time though, you know, because you've gone through that MBI, um, significant change, not just for you, but for the business as well. Um, and then you're getting to the point where you're into year two of your three-year strategy, and then suddenly just something comes out that you weren't expecting, you're having to pivot, make different decisions, and so on and so forth. That must be quite, I guess, there must be an element of being scared, it must be scary to a certain extent. There's got to be an element of scary, you know. No, I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

No, no, no, I'm not no, and I'm not, I'm not, I just I don't think like that. Right, okay. If I thought like that, I'd be a nervous wreck. So, yeah, so I'll give you a really good example. Um and I'm it was a Christmas party this year, like this year, and I had my EMT over. So we we every six months. So they come over in November, we're doing a Christmas party, and Paris turned around to me, she goes, All these people, you know, they're here because you did an MBO, you know, you're paying their salaries and all that. Aren't you worried about all that, you know, if it goes pear shape and all that? Okay, if I thought like that, I wouldn't get out of bed every morning. And if you think like that, you won't. For me, is I I guess I if I don't think about that, and I just think about forward, yeah. The job in hand, the top in hand, drive forward, keep going. I mean, I'm a big cricketing fan. Play with a straight bat. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Play the ball with a straight bat. Whatever comes at you, just play it straight back and and and do it. And I think if you take one step at a time, yeah, you just work through it. If you start to look, there are times where work gets in your head and you know, everyone goes through it. The way I deal with it is I go away and then start to go back to engineering days, and I'm not making this up, is you break things up and you start to go, okay, I'll do this one, I'll do that one, and do and you start to work methodically through it.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Every task one at a time.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Until it's complete.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Exactly right. So for me, I've got that mentality.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Yeah. Okay. That's really interesting. Well, let's talk a little bit about culture. So the culture of a business. Obviously, you know, you're now leading um a large organization. Um, how how how have you either A maintained the culture that was there prior to the MBO and then B expanded upon that culture? Because what I've noticed, Ross, and this is me looking from the outside in. Um, obviously we've we've we're connections, we've known each other a while. Um, I've seen quite significant cultural changes across your business from things that you share on LinkedIn, you know, your approach to certain things, and so on and so forth. Has that been a very important element to you when this process took place to drive a slightly different culture, a slightly different. And I'm not saying the culture was bad.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Not to drive a different culture, but I think I'm probably driven by different things. Yeah. Yeah. And um, and I don't say, look, we're still creating our own culture. So when you're part of a group and you work in that office, there's a culture that works there. We have probably 80% of our employees work in our client sites. Yeah. So they they that they are with that culture. And so, how do you get them to believe in what we do and stuff like that? That's a challenge. That's the challenge. You've got the same issue. Yeah, every service provider has the same issue when they've got a dispersed portfolio in their clients, you know. And I had someone this morning say, you know, she works on a client's site, she goes, I'm more them than they, and we're going, well, that's not a bad thing because we're an extension of the client. Yeah. But just remember, we're trying to give you other avenues. We can give you career paths, which they can't give you. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. So, but from a cultural point of view, it's it's interesting. And I I'm probably if I was to say what I'm terrible at is probably the culture bit, right? Yeah. Because I I don't like tough conversations. I I'm not, I shy away with tough conversations. Yeah, I'm not great at me. Yeah, no, no, no. I I don't like conflict, I don't like any of that, right? But I'm a CEO and sometimes you've got to have tough conversations. Yeah, of course. And I go like my Italian makes me go, you know, one extreme to the other. It's like you're straight on.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

And then you kind of calm down and you go, Oh, what I do, that and all that. So so and I'm trying to be more I've been told as a CEO you've got to be very steady. It's not me.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

You know, I just up and down, you know, you know, I I I lead, I I lead with my, what do you say, your heart on your sleeve type of thing?

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

That's not a terrible thing, sort of. You know, but from a culture, I want people to like coming to work and enjoy coming to work. Yeah. And and and for me, that's really important that that people really do that. And the culture will come from that. I want a culture where people feel like, do you know what? If I if I do if I work here, I can create a career path for myself. I was fortunate that Mace enable me to have a career. Yeah. And I want to create those careers for for other people in the business. And that's ultimately what I want to be doing. And I want people to enjoy doing that.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I see that you you you've had quite a bit of growth in North America, am I right, in saying that?

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Big growing in North America, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah, because I've seen I've seen quite what what's that marketplace like, Ross, in terms of if you were to compare that to the UK? The only reason I ask, I have a lot of people that that either I know or that are past colleagues and things like that that would love the opportunity to work in the US. What what would you say the differences are in that marketplace as opposed to ours? I think it's more cutthroat. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah. I mean they can fire you in two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Can they?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah. There's a there's a will, um what's uh uh what's it fire at will type of clauses in your contract? So they I can walk into you and say you're fired and move on. Really? Yeah. Well, and there's not as easy, and yeah, it becomes very legit litigious and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, but it's that kind of society. It is more yeah, it is very litigious, it is more that type of and it is all about performance. They they are driven all about performance.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah. And how do how do you how does that compare from a cultural perspective in terms of because I guess that's something that you would have to have got to grips to when you became CEO, even before the MBO, the different cultures and different environments and different ways of you've got to appreciate that people are different all over the world, you know, and and actually don't try and change that.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

What you're trying to do is kind of mold it across the business so people feel like that, you know, yeah, embrace the differences. You know, we we've had conferences the other day, we had an internal session on um different religions. Yeah, you know, share the differences so people understand it instead of trying to not talk about it, you know. Yeah, you know, we talk about you know, some of the issues we talk about internally with conference calls and stuff like that. So we have different committees. Yeah. I mean, I was in one of them a few weeks ago. Um we were talking about men's health, and I was in tears because someone was telling telling us about his situation, and they were talking about mental health and how their son tried to commit suicide, and you're thinking, oh my goodness, and this guy's bearing awe in front of you know the internal team. So for me, that is what I want people to be themselves. We have this thing about um you know, bringing your whole self to work, and I totally believe in that, and I think that's what will create the culture.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

I like that, I like that phrase actually bringing myself to work.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Yeah, and um, and so now they're using, and I love this because it's one of my favourite films, This Is Me. Yeah, you know, that is this is me, this is who I am.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Is it really the greatest showman?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah, I love that film too, mate. Absolutely, I'm obviously going watch it. I don't know if it's still on, go and watch the stage show in the court.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah, I was, I was gonna get tickets for it. It's really good, but it's like hundred and odd quid, and I'm tight, so it's worth it. I'm buying yeah, but I'm buying a house at the minute, right? Okay, I'll explain that. Yeah, because that's a challenge as well, to be fair. Um, okay, so really interesting that um that that that that you know you know you're driving that kind of culture within the organisation. Um let me ask you a different question. Um, if you were to offer some advice to somebody entering both the workplace and the facilities management arena now, what would be the single piece of advice that you would give to those young people?

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Be curious.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Be curious. Okay. Learn, ask questions. Um, don't take the norm as a norm. You know, just just learn as much as you can.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

And and it might sound like a cop-out answer, but it is true. It's when you start to ask questions and when you start to learn and and don't take the answer as as as it go and go go and Google it or go and use AI. I mean, that's the other thing, is start using AI. I mean, you'd be silly if you're not using AI for stuff at the moment, you know. Just start to use it. But you can use all this technology, but if you're not curious in nature, it's gonna make it hard. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, just be curious.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Yeah, how do I quite quite because I think you're the f one of the first people I've had on the industry that's um on the show, sorry, that's that's that's kind of that sort of TFM provider um so far. What what's your view on AI in terms of how you feel it will impact the industry? And do you have any thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah, I mean, we we I I think I AI, if you don't think it's going to impact the industry, I think you're burying your head in the sand. I agree. I think firstly it'll make your business more efficient. So the back of the house. So what that'll enable you is to deliver a better service for your clients. Agreed. But there's also stuff you can do. And I I take the cleaning industry, right? So we use IoT technology at the moment to look at work patterns of people working and all that. And then you've got a human who then goes, Oh, the frequency there, we can do this based on that.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

You put an AI engine on that. They can do it, yeah. They can do it easily. And you can just do it easily. Yeah. Doesn't mean so you probably have less people, or you might say, I'll have the same people and deliver a better service. Exactly. So so and that's the same for maintenance, that's the same for everything you can do with. So so for me, is we don't even know what AI would do in the future. We we're only going on what we know today. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But I it will it'll it'll be a it will revolutionise what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Yeah. But I've got a great um piece of um innovative technology around IOT sensors that is driven by AI. You should have a chat with me about it. It's um it's very, very good in terms of driving efficiency. I've got one more question for you, um, and I'm gonna finish on this because I think it's it's it's quite an interesting one for you, Ross. If I was to pop you in the FMX time machine and whiz you all the way back to when you started your career in FM at 26, um what changes would you make and why? To me. Yeah. To your career, not to you personally.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Yeah, to my career. I'd probably be look I I'm I'm lucky to where I am. I'd and so I'd probably say I'd probably be more confident in my own ability.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

The reason I never went off and did my own thing earlier is because I probably didn't have the confidence to do it. Right. So I didn't back myself at the time. Even though I knew I could do it, yeah, I didn't know I could do it. Do do do you get what I mean? Yeah. And now I'm sitting here thinking, I could have done this years ago. And I'm not I'm just saying that uh back yourself. And I probably didn't back myself as much as I I could have.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah, do you think that was based around the experience that you maybe didn't have then? And that's why you took that decision.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

No, no, it is. But I mean, I I mean my my parents were migrants. Yeah. You know, it you're never gonna be a s a a senior person, you know, you know, it wasn't it wasn't in your mentality, you know. Right do you know what I mean? You you're almost going, okay, this is where you are in the world, this is where you, you know, this is where you fit, you might go a little bit, but you can't do do you know what I mean? So but that's a chip on my shoulders. That's me limiting myself because of that, you know. Yeah. And it's interesting with my own, and and it's not just you know, my parents have been they were fantastic, you know, they gave me every opportunity, yeah. But they're only limited to what they knew. You know, my dad didn't even go to school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 46:56

You know, my mum was in a factory at the age of 13.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah. So you're limited by that experience, right? Yes, they they knew that we had to go to university and they gave, you know, me and my three sisters all had the opportunity to do that, and they worked really hard to do that. Yeah. Right. But they they didn't know what that what doors that opened. No. Whereas now I look at my kids and they're more open-minded and they're more, you know, I was talking about my daughter doing research, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for her to go, I want to do a master's and a PhD. I would never have thought doing that when I was young because it wasn't in my psyche. But she's going going back to she's curious, she wants to do more, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's not limited by the thoughts that I had, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

So yeah, I think it's what when I when I was younger, and I think we're not too far off age where you know, like that you're about 10 years younger than me, but yes. I don't know about that, mate. I don't know. You'd be shocked at how old I am. Um, but the like the the reality is university wasn't as um available when I was younger um as it as it is now. Um, and if you are 10 years older than me, for example, then it certainly wasn't as available then. So for people like you and I, the the route to university was you wanted to be a solicitor, an accountant, um, a doctor, or this or that. It wasn't necessarily to become a um a researcher or a scientific analyst. Do you know what I mean? It was it was different.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

When I did engineering, you know why I did engineering? Well, because my mates did engineering. I had no idea what I wanted to do. Yeah, and they got in and I thought, I can do this. Yeah, well, I said I'll go and join them. And I still remember going in doing the lab the first time, and then Blokes talking goobly goook about you know resistors and transistors, and and I go, What are you talking about? And these guys next to me are building things, and I'm going, oh my god, what have I just got myself into? Yeah, but that I had no idea, I followed my friends, I just thought it was a good thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Yeah, well, I um I ended up I went to college after school to become an um a mechanical engineer. I am not an engineer, right? At all. No, it comes out. No, but honestly, no, no, I didn't do it, I didn't even finish the course because the thing is, like when I went when I went to college, I realised oh, this isn't like school. Yeah, I don't have to go. Yeah, just I don't have to go. And and that's literally what I did. I went to the pub and I think I lasted maybe three, four weeks, but I did it because my dad wanted me to do it. It wasn't something that that that I wanted to do. And then I ended up joining the navy because I had an argument with my mum who told me that I was never going to become anything. I was like, right, I'll show you. So I went and signed up and passed out, and then you know, we we all end up on life's little tapestry, don't we? Like life's little journey and things like that. Quick question, yeah, and I don't mean to pry. Um, do did your parents see you become CEO of of Macro? Did they see your your career?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

My um, to be fair, my mum's still alive, my dad passed away. Right. So dad didn't see it. He knew dad died in 2019, so I'd probably become CEO within the mace group, but not. Um but they still have no idea what I do. My mum has no idea what I do. Absolutely. She she'll still ring me, like I talk to her every week, and she'd still go, How's work going? Are you okay? You know, you're not gonna lose your job or anything, and you're not gonna mean she's got this mentality that you know, you know, I could get fired the next day. I could, but but she's yeah, you know, it's like you know, make sure you work really hard for your bosses and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

But that's that attitude, isn't it? That that's that's that old school attitude you've you've got to really carry on and things like that. My mum checks me out on here, she follows us on YouTube, does she?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

That's really good.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

She knows what I'm doing all the time.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

My mum is lucky to get I mean she my mum, um, yeah, she's not very I mean she's 86, so she's not really into technology. So she'll go on to Facebook, she'll do Facebook and stuff like that. But that's about it.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Well, we're gonna add it to Facebook next time. It's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

No, no, I'll tell her and send it to her so that you're my mum still has no idea what I do, and dad, yeah, didn't really say.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

But uh I bet if you were to tell them if they did know, if they watched this podcast, I bet do you think they'd be surprised? Your mum particularly?

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Yeah, I I I think they would be surprised.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

I think I'm gonna give you some homework here, Ross. I think what you need to do is actually when we provide you with the version and we release it, get your mum to watch it. I'd I would love to know what her response is to a son operating at that level within this industry. Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 51:05

No, I will do, I will do. It will surprise her.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

It'd be a really cool exercise.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah, no, no, I yeah, no, no, it'd be really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

And could you do get her to do a little video for us?

SPEAKER_01 51:13

Just I could try. With a broken with a broken Italian accent.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Even better, mate. Even better.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

My mum is like, you know, you look at those Italian nonners. Yeah, that's my mum.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Well, I could get my mum to do one for you, mate, but in New Zealand with a North Yorkshire accent.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Is your mum in New Zealand?

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Yeah, yeah, she's in the yeah, she's um I'd well I was over there for about eight years, um, but I came back. I New Zealand was just a bit too small for me, so um I came back to the UK and I've been here ever since. But I see him regularly. I don't fly over there, she flies here.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Yeah, well, I pay for the ticket.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Right, okay. Yeah, I don't know. My mum doesn't want to fly anymore, so we're going over um at Christmas time.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yeah, because it's Sydney, isn't it? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh beautiful. All right, that brings us to the end of the show, Ross. How have you found it?

SPEAKER_01 51:58

It's been brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Have you enjoyed it? Yeah, yeah, no, it's really good fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is, it is. And listen, thank you very much for joining us. Um, as ever, guys, um, if you want to reach out to Ross, I know that he's um very open to people connecting with him on LinkedIn. Um, and I'm sure that if he's available, Dire permitting, obviously, he's a very busy man, but if you were to ask him a question, um, I'm sure he would come back and answer. But thank you ever so much for joining us, Ross.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

On the next, on the well, the last episode of season one.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Anyway, guys, that's it. Um, look, we're gonna be back probably around July, I would say. Um, you're gonna see some changes come July as well. Um, because whilst we've really enjoyed season one, um, you know, it has we've learned a lot um in terms of you know, producing the podcast, um, creating the room, creating a nice space, and and so on and so forth. You can't see them at the minute, but we've got Finn and Ruben behind the camera. Um, we're gonna go away, we're gonna make some changes. When we come back for season two, it's gonna be even bigger, it's gonna be even better, and we're gonna be bringing you even far more interesting facilities management content. But up until then, as ever, if you can't be good, be bad. Bye bye.