#15 - Discovering Heritage Buildings - Tony Retberg, Hellen Spall and Andy Kelly

Welcome to Episode #15 of The Facilities Management Exchange

Today we’re joined by Andy Kelly, Helen Spall and Tony Retberg for a fascinating conversation exploring the unique challenges and rewards of managing some of the UK’s most iconic and historic buildings — from Manchester Central and the Houses of Parliament to Freemasons’ Hall.

This episode dives into the realities of heritage Facilities Management, balancing modern operational demands with centuries of history, and why the people behind these buildings are so passionate about what they do.

In this episode expect:
• A behind-the-scenes look at managing landmark heritage buildings
• The hidden operational challenges of maintaining historic venues
• Ghost stories, urban legends and some unexpected humour along the way
• Honest reflections on the pride FM professionals feel for the buildings they manage
• Career journeys into FM from aviation, security and events
• Why transferable skills are one of the biggest strengths in the industry
• The importance of people, relationships and workplace culture in FM
• The debate around AI, automation and whether experience will always beat technology
• Advice for young people looking to break into Facilities Management
• The growing need for apprenticeships and opportunities within the industry

This is a candid, insightful and entertaining conversation about heritage buildings, operational pressures, career progression and the future of Facilities Management — packed with stories, practical lessons and a genuine passion for the industry.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, welcome to another episode of the Facilities Management Exchange. It's been a long day today, FMing all over the place, but it's great to have you guys back here with us at the FMX podcast. Anyway, really interesting episode for you today. One of the more interesting that we've done so far because today we are discovering heritage buildings. And we're joined by some fantastic FM professionals that look after some truly iconic buildings. We've got Andy Kelly here today, who looks after Manchester Central, and we're going to talk about that in depth later on. Helen Spahl, who works with the Houses of Parliament. So I know she's got some very interesting stories that we'll be able to talk about. And Tony Retberg, who looks after the United Grand Lodge of England and Wales. How are you doing, guys? You alright? I'm out. All good, Mark. Two came here. TKM here, yeah.

unknown 1:06

Standard.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Jubes. Jubes. Jubes. Yeah. So who got here on the tube, everyone? You did on that. I got on the tube, yeah. It was okay, actually. Ellen, you walked.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah, no, I was okay this morning because they were running. It was at midday, so going home might be interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

All right. Uber?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Stagger.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Stagger. Get rid of the nerves. Tony, what about you? Did you ever?

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Oh, I got a bus here from my building, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Did you? Yeah. Did you get a bus all the way here? Yeah. Or did you you didn't have to change buses?

SPEAKER_03 1:36

No, one bus. Walk down to the strand and one bus all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Oh, really? How long does it take? 10-15 minutes. Did it feel good getting on a bus? Whenever I get on a bus, I think I'm on a bus.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Whenever I get on a bus, I think of in between us and getting caught something.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I'm usually drunk on a bus because the trains are all cancelled, as much as you say. I get on a bus though.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too right, too right. So um listen, thank you all for joining us today. So look, I've I've very casually mentioned all your buildings. So do you know what I think it'd be really, really cool? If we go around the table, you tell us a little bit about the building you look after, and then we're going to focus in on your career. So, Andy, let's start with you. Tell us a bit about Manchester Central.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

So Manchester Central, um an ex-train station, built um 1869. Um then, you know, it was uh running trains to London, St Pancras. It's it's built to the same shape, same architect as St Pancras. Uh grade two star listed. Um at its height, 400 trains were coming down to St Pancras on the Cheshire Lines. What every day? Uh I don't even think they do that now. No, I don't think that's what they're doing. Definitely not. No, uh definitely not. Um but yeah, in in the 60s when the development of Piccadilly Station and Oxford, you know, it went into disrepair and it closed down. Became a car park, um, then the council bought it and it became the famous GMEX where all the concerts used to happen up until the late 90s, where we repurpose and we do conventions and exhibitions and events.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah, so it's quite an interesting history for a building though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. It's a great building. It's it's a number of buildings which have been merged over the years, so uh that poses his own challenges from an FM perspective. But yeah, we'll we'll we'll get into them later on.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Any ghosties? No ghosties. I bet there's a ghostey in there, there's got to be.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

The only the only ghost is me on a Monday morning if Man City lost probably. I'm a bit white. Yeah, a bit white. Not again, no, no, correct. No, not that I've heard of anyway. Um no ghosts.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

All right, I'm gonna have to go there about one o'clock in the morning and put the sheet on. Use my super sensory powers, mate, just see if I can um feel one, you know. Helen, hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I'm fine, thank you. Yeah, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, and tell us a little bit about the buildings you look after.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

So, the Houses of Parliament. So, specifically the House of Commons, they're separated into two House of Lords, House of Commons. Yeah. The House of Commons is run as a separate enterprise, really.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Um, it's made up of a various number of Grade One, Grade Two, and UNESCO World Heritage Site. Wow. Uh which makes it particularly interesting. So the Houses of Parliament, as most people call them, it's the Palace of Westminster. Yes. That's actually the UNESCO World Heritage Site. So it comes under some really strict governance on what you can do, what you can't do. And I mean it's a beautiful, fascinating building. I bet, yeah. It's uh it's a living museum. I bet. It's a living museum, but their the artworks are actually um referred to as being owned by the public um because they are uh publicly owned. So but yeah, it's it's beautiful. It is beautiful. It's got its challenges, and though I think that it's really well documented, and we are waiting on our restoration and renewal programme to start sort of bringing the palace back to life and preserve it for future generations.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Wow, when was it actually built? I don't think I d I honestly don't know the answer.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

So Westminster Hall goes back uh way, way back into I wish I'd got my thing, but uh into about the 13th century, but um parts of it were rebuilt by Victoria um after there was a fire, and then of course it got bombed in the war, so um there's been sort of various parts of it, um, but a lot of it was redesigned by Pugim. Right, and it's it's just uh everything in there's like symbolic. Yeah, everything that's within the building itself is symbolic, it holds a meaning somewhere for something, so it's it's just beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Oh, fantastic. And so when do we get a tour? I definitely want to see that.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah, anytime. Anytime. Anytime you come, I'll take you round.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Brilliant. We'll take we'll take FMX on the road. Yeah, do it.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, we'll do a show there.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

I'm sure you can make prime minister's questions. Yeah, we can't. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

He needs to be talking to local business entrepreneurs and that, you know what I mean? People that are delivering for the UK. That's important. Absolutely. Yeah, well, maybe I'll get someone else instead of me then. Tony, you look after, as I've said on many, many occasions, my favourite building in London.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

You have said that, yeah. Freemasons Hall.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah, tell us all about it.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

It's the headquarters of Freemasonry in England and Wales. Yeah, um, it was built in 1926-27. We opened what it took six years to build, and we opened in third 1933. It's the third building we've had on that plot over a few hundred years. Right. Grade two listed now. I did try and dig a bit today to find out when it became grade two listed, but I couldn't find any info and I asked a couple of people as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

I find it fascinating that it only took six years to build that building.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

If you try to build that now, it'd be about 35 years. Yeah, and it'd have gone over budget by two billion. Oh, god, yes. That's just to get planning permission, isn't it? That's true though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yeah, I mean the uh I don't think it's officially Art Deco, but there's a lot of hints of Art Deco. You've been there, you've seen it. It's beautiful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yeah, the masonry and just you know, just everything about it, the rooms. It's got like I it's got like this, it reminds me a little bit of um not that Hogwarts exists, but it reminds me a little bit of Hogwarts. I know what you're doing. You know, in the films, like it's it's got that really oldy worldy film. Have you guys ever been there? No, I think you guys have loved that building to be fair.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Feel free to turn up. We do guided tours, we've got a cafe and bar, library museum, all owned to the public. The bar's not free. You've fallen for that one. You've fallen for that one before, remember. Let's not go there. Let's not go there. Let's not go there. No free bar, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Oh, okay. So look, I'll tell you what, like I'm not going to focus too much on the buildings that you look after because I want to focus in on you guys and your careers in FM. But tell tell us each of you individually, what's the biggest challenge that you experience in a heritage building from a problem perspective? Andy, let's start with you again.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Um utilities, you you know, try try well, if you think about from an energy efficiency, you know, these buildings over a you know 140 years old, trying to manage it uh efficiently from a uh one for the cost of utilities, and you know, yes, we can put solar on it, we're in fact we're applying for solar at the moment, but actually it it's not as um warm as you think because it's got nooks and crannies where it all sort of escapes and things like that. So it I I'd I'd suggest the sort of thermal comfort. The offices is different because it it is a mixed match of different ages of building, but the main train station, you can imagine it was a train station at one stage. Well it's built to be you know, a train station. At one end it was open at one stage, but so yeah, it's it's if you looked at its um energy rating, I dare say it'll be very, very low in terms of we don't have it because it's a listed building, but I think that's that's one of the challenges. That's one of the main challenges of the utility consumption. Although it's fed from a um a heat network, so we're fed from a sustainable source as stuff as such, but in in terms of trying to keep it thermally, thermally is that a word thermally? I don't know, it is now or comfort cooled and heated, etc. etc. We don't actually we don't actually cool it a lot, we don't need to because it's so big, yeah. We we can use natural ventilation, we probably put the cooling on in the main hall no more than ten times a year, believe it or not.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Right, okay. And obviously, like it being a warm place would be quite important basically. Well, Manchester Walk. Well, no, but I mean I mean be it being warm inside the space is actually quite important because of the nature of business that's the space there. So I imagine it is a challenge that you talk about quite regularly.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

I would I would and and and the problem is we can have multiple events in the hall.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

So trying to keep one side of the hall maybe at certain temperature and the other side of the hall at another temperature, that is a challenge in itself.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

I bet, yeah.

unknown 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

How do you how do how do you cope with that then? How does we don't?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

No, we do. I'm telling you, I'm just saying, age old problem.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

You can't keep everyone happy, can you? With temperature, it's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

And we've got many, we have got mono technology, we've got a BMS.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Uh you know, so we've got that, and and you can control it, but you know, someone's warm, as you said, Tony, someone's cold. Yeah, yes, and you do get this. Turn it up, turn it down, turn it up.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

We get it in just uh the small open plan office with 30 four people in, let alone the rest of the building. It's all on BMS, like you said. But yeah, yeah, one big room holds 1600 people. Yeah, yeah. The office holds the you it's impossible. Yeah, it is. There's always someone cold and someone warm, isn't it? Yeah, so all down to individual interpretation. No, it's down to my director, he puts it at what temperature he's happy with, and then everybody else has to put up with it. Yeah, do you told?

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, well, I mean, I've obviously uh you took me around Manchester Central several months ago and uh an amazing building, beautiful building. And you can tell by the history, it's definitely haunted though, Andy, I'm telling you. Telling you, mate. Telling you, yeah, some guy called Dave who died in 1802. In the duck, somewhere in the duck. Put it around there in the cannabis or the subway, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

That could be true. Yeah, it could be true.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Helen, what about yourself? What's the biggest challenge in the Palace at Westminster, I suppose?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

So I we're to start in a lot of ways, really. There's there's huge amounts. I think the biggest challenge for us is the stakeholders in a lot of respects, with uh aging infrastructure, aging buildings, um, which need a lot more uh maintenance. So they're they've that we're going through the programme of the sort of restoration for multiple buildings on the site, but that means that we're now getting leaks and um uh air conditioning units aren't working, heating isn't working, sometimes that can affect events that we've got in there. So it's really that stakeholder management in a lot of ways because our our whole purpose is to keep parliament open, running, and that the members can get to the get to their sessions um and and work comfortably and and suitably. But yeah, there's I think the cost as well to keep these estates alive and running, certainly um with them. We've got small sort of modern buildings, but as I say, we're going through this major refurbishment of the whole estate at the moment, getting ready for the restoration. So it's about it's like that whack-a-mole, isn't it? You sort of hit it on the head at one place, it's gonna come up somewhere else, and it's it's that stakeholder management at that essential point, we've got to make sure that parliament can happen at any anytime that they require it.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, I mean it's such a challenge in these kinds of environments, isn't it? Because you know, if you've got a brand new, shiny um building in central London that's just gone up and it's a tower and it's got this fantastic BMS AI seaming through the veins and and all of that stuff, where a lot of things are automated. Yeah, um, whilst that might seem easy, that you know, when stuff goes wrong there, it's a challenge as well. But you you guys, you know, room to room would the things would differ. So you must always have to think on your feet in in respect to the challenges that you come across.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah, and I think also the age of the building, if you think that it sort of evolved and evolved, naming protocols for your asset register change over time as you're moving through the building. Um, so somebody may have called it, I don't know, a toilet block, and all of a sudden it's now a WC block or it's uh and so those name conventions, so there's huge amounts of work to condense that information, but we've got a sort of a team that works on that now, yeah. Um so that you know, as we are currently going out for new tenders on some of these uh large contracts, um we've got the right information so that we get the tenders right, then we get the maintenance right, then we get the cleaning right, and and everything that goes with that. So there's there's a big piece around the um asset register and the sort of procurement around that.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah, and obviously I'm guessing in a place that lives in politics, the politics is probably challenging from time to time. I couldn't possibly say you know, it's it it it it lends itself to that environment, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

I suppose. That's where me and Helen have got something in common. Yeah. We we we do it. We do it. Government comes to us as well, used to government of choice, you know. We we have party uh political once every two years. So we have a conservative party every two years come to us. And they were the party of choice, yeah. So it goes on goes on the road, you probably have a holiday then, don't you? When it goes on the road.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

We yeah, that's when everyone's crazy busy doing the deep please, the hard thing, yeah, yeah. Get the mupes out.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah, twice a year. And anyway, ghosties. There's a few ghosties there in there.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

I haven't seen one, but I did have did look it up, and apparently there is a ghost dog that nuzzles people, and I can definitely vouch I have not had that happen. Ghost dog. Yeah, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

That's even better than a ghost child, isn't it? You know what I mean? That's what we want.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

And and apparently a grey lady that that number of people reckon they've seen. I haven't seen a grey lady either, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Leave the politics out of it, Mike. I can see it.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

See you thing going in no-political at FMX. I will not I will not get involved. I saw a grey lady once, you know. I didn't know honestly, I'm not joking. I did, honestly. This sounds like a holding in breath. Come on, give us a chance. So I grew up, I grew up in a place called Wednesday, North Yorkshire. All right, so I used to I used to live in a town called Midland, and it's got moors on it, moorland up at the top where horse races used to train and things like that. And there was always a story about the grey lady that would walk along the moors because she was um apparently imprisoned at Bolton Castle, and there's a whole story about it, how she dropped a shawl and the shawl got named the shawl and all of that stuff. Anyway, I was walking down the moor with my dog one day, 15 years old, minding my own business, right? And I see this lady, this grey lady just out in the distance, swear down, and I was walking towards her, she was walking towards me. I didn't look out of the ordinary or anything like that. She got about 100 feet from me and just disappeared. Honestly.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Does she have a dog?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

No, and I never got nuzzled. I don't know whether to believe you, or just I'm waiting for the punchline. I'm waiting for the punchline. No, I'm joking. I'm joking, it wasn't me. But it did happen to my granddad.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Your granddad disappeared.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yes, yeah, yeah, it's never been seen again, mate. Fell into a vat of Wendsydale cheese. No, I'm joking. It didn't really. No, but no, but it's true, like these old buildings, like build the reason I asked that question, it seems like a silly question, all right? But old buildings have character, they have memories, they have things associated with them, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Creeks in certain and there's a good chance someone's died in there because they're old buildings.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Exactly. Well, definitely in places like the Houses of Parliament, for example, you know. I mean, back in the days of Cromwell and that, that's where the royalty was dealt with, wasn't it? You know, in those kind of areas. And you know, Manchester Central, let's be honest, railway back in the Victorian times, health and safety was not a consideration. A few people probably got taken out.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

You didn't have a conductor on the side, just step back behind the line, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

There was no yellow line that said um, you know, mind the step or anything like that. You know, people probably but the that's what I mean. Like when you're in older buildings, they've got they've got this. I think anyway, you know, like when I walk into one, it's like they have this aura about them. Um, there's you can actually there's an atmosphere. Is that the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_03 17:46

I do know what you mean. I felt it when I first worked in my building, yeah. I've been there 15 years now, and yeah, you're like, especially if you're in in the building on your own, yes, on a on a Sunday or something like that, you're like, oh, this is a bit creepy.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

I bet it is, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I'd fancy that, to be fair.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

You know, sitting in some little office somewhere with yeah, no, and you see the shadow of a statue, and you think, Who's who's that? Oh, it's the statue, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

It's not the grey lady, yeah. Do you not do you not um do you not get a sense of when you when you walk in when it is quite like that sense of pride or you know, I I walk in sometimes when our venues kind of look up at the gable, which is the the main festival, you know, it just something for me it makes it makes it just a sense of pride and yeah, no, I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

I do a lot of um site visits because we've me and my director have taken on the event side of things again. We used to do it a couple of years ago, and when we're showing people around doing site visits, they're like, Wow, look at the you've like you were that time. You'd do wow, look at this place, this is incredible. And I'm like, I jokingly go, Yeah, it's just my office. But yeah, I'm like, wow, I I'm really I I love working here. This this building is fantastic, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah, but that's what's good about it, isn't it? Yeah, to be fair. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah, it's a it's a cool building, isn't it? It's an old building, but it's yeah, it's cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

There's a history there. There's there's you know, there's not that there's anything wrong with new buildings, because I love them too. Like I love going into a new building that's just been built, and you see the technology, and you know, the lift goes at a million miles an hour, and you think you're gonna fly out the top of it, you know. That I like I like all that as well, but I think I think you know that that mix that's what I love about London actually. The the the the mixture of new and old and how that comes together and things like that. I think that's really cool. Anyway, Tony, same question to you.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yeah, I forgot what the question was. We're gonna have to repeat it.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Sorry what's the biggest challenge um in your building that you have to face?

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Uh can can I change a bit as as in what my director and the maintenance manager have to face? I'm part of their team. Yeah, of course, yeah. Yeah, it's I'm I'm guessing that if they would answer it this way, Regent Street's disease. Ever heard of that?

SPEAKER_02 19:54

You've mentioned this to me before, I'm sure you've got to be a chance.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

It's a it's a big problem for buildings built around our time. Really? Lots of steel girders, yeah. Where rainwater has crept in through the concrete and all that the girders go rusty, expand, so then concrete starts falling off if you're not killed.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Yeah, because you had scaffolds up recent uh last year's.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

It's a long, long project. We've just done phase three or four or something, I can't remember now, and that's just been finished. But virtually the whole building needs to be done because all of the rust on the girders, yeah, you need to get the rust off basically somehow. So obviously they can't replace the girders, can they? So what do they do? Just clean them. Yeah, they they've magically cleaned them now. I don't know. They treat them, won't they?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, they'll they'll treat them in a diet safe elements.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

But it has to be done, otherwise you're gonna get big, big slabs of concrete falling off because the building is expanding.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

And it's very expensive.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Trust me. So is that on rotation as well? Because I'm guessing is it something whereby once you've treated it's good for X amount of years and then you've got to do it again?

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Yeah, no, I not sure. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. We're just slowly doing the whole building, which is taking quite a few years anyway. So obviously the most serious bits are being done first, and we're working our way around the building. And it's not just the outside, you've seen inside we've got a courtyard as well. So all that needs to be done. Oh, no way. Yeah, I bet that is quite frustrating, which causes me problems, as in there's lots of scaffolding coming in out of the door. I need security on a door constantly, and yeah, there's other things, people are not allowed to walk through certain corridors because there's scaffold posts coming in and out, and oh no way, certain people can't read signs and walk through and nearly get a scaffold pole in their head or a or a ball, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

We'll get on to wealth and safety. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

So that that's a a big problem in our our building. I was gonna say at the moment, but it's a long term project. It's going on for several years. Wow. Right, okay. And any ghosties? Well, see seeing as you want a ghost story, you're desperate for a ghost story.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

I am desperate for a ghost story, yeah. Why not?

SPEAKER_03 21:54

There's rumors that um up on the second or third floor, someone saw what looked like a a a clown. Or had a clown mask on. Turned out just to be a podcast host. I thought I'd make one up for you marks.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Thank you, I'll tell that I don't like that.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

No one has ever seen a ghost there, but it as I said, it is a bit creepy of you on your own.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

I'm going to change my name from voice of FM to the ghost of UGLE, mate.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

There's no ghost, not to my building. No, that's cool. You don't believe in ghosts though, do you tine? I wouldn't say I don't believe in ghosts, but I've never seen one. I'd kind of I would like to, but it'd probably depending on what it's doing, it would scare me. I'm I guess I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I don't think the do books, to be fair, just float around and you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 22:37

You're thinking of Scooby-Doo.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

His sheets on.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Okay, cool. Alright then. Well listen, I think No, sorry, can I interrupt? Go on. Have you got a proper ghost story other than one you just made up? You've been in lots of buildings. You've Have you seen a ghost?

SPEAKER_02 22:54

I think I think I have, but like I you haven't, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Forget it, you haven't.

unknown 22:58

I think I have.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

No, I think no, I think I have. But it's it's a long story and we haven't got time to be fair. It's not about me, guys, it's about you.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

All right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

All right. Um, anyway, moving on. Swiftly. How about your careers? Okay, so what I'd like to find out is how each of you ended up in the FM space. Um, and obviously the purpose of the podcast is to inspire the next generation of FM professionals. So, you know, firstly, how did you end up in the FM space? Um, and then secondly, what kept you in it? And what advice would you give to somebody looking to join it? Let's start with you, Helen. Okay, we're not going Andy first this time, we're gonna go you. Beautiful, well done. So I've caught you off guard, don't you? Yeah, I checked the card. Sorry, Helen.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

No, I can do this bit easy. I know it's one. But um, so I started uh my FM career, I worked for EasyJet um over in Luton, and I had been working uh on a secondment doing Project 10. So it was the 10th anniversary, and I was doing the event management, arranging all of the parties across Europe. Fantastic. That's not bad, is it? Yeah, I know. Brilliant job that was. I know, and I was on the second, but whilst I was on the second, I was working with the FM team, I was in the same place as them, and they were hilarious, they were like the best people you could ever work with. Funny, no day was the same. And when my secondment came to an end, I was faced with a redundancy, and somebody had approached me and said, Listen, whilst you've been working with us, we think you'd be a really good fit in FM. And I was like, Oh my goodness, really? Okay, so that's how I got into FM, but I was more in the project management relocation, and I don't know why. Well, I do know why. The uh two of us as uh facilities managers, the other lady didn't like flying, so I ended up looking after the whole of Europe, which started off with just three bases that I was looking after. But the airline was expanding rapidly, and I ended up in the end travelling all around Europe, um, going for multiple lunches and meeting an incredible array of people, but it was the camaraderie for the projects where we'd got the same team and we would take them, uh take them out. So I'm gonna put a bit of a shout out for FPM over in Luton, there were a local company that we used, and and they were just fantastic um for that. They knew what they were doing. We had the same guys that did it, did the branding, and it was just so much fun. It was so much fun, loved it, but it rapidly expanded, and I ended up goodness, I think I had in the end 30 odd um facilities spread across the whole network. So I would fly out maybe on a Monday, say, to Paris, and then go across Paris to the other airport, over to Milan, down to Lisbon, and by Friday I'd come back and I'd be like, oh my goodness. And um what I realized was that I was an airline employee in an FM role, yeah, and I'd started to get very involved with the BI FM at the time. They'd launched the Women in FM, and it was uh Lucy Janes, Anne, um Vico Farrell, and the lovely Liz Kentish, and they were all part of it, and they started really inspiring me, and I suddenly thought this is what I need to do. Yeah, I I I want to be an FM, I want to be a professional facilities manager working somewhere, not like just an employee, because no one really understood it, no one really got it, so it was very challenging. And so I left there and went to work on the Tri Borough contract for uh Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which was really pioneering. They'd uh joined the three councils together: Hammersmith, Westminster, and Kensington and Chelsea, to protect frontline services and bring it all into together because they'd got different models of FM delivery, and they did it through a huge TFM contract that uh Amy was successful in getting. And I stayed there on the client side team for about two years, right? Um, and it was always the client side team was always going to start to reduce, and so at that point I applied for Stansted Airport and I got the head of FM there, which was amazing. It really was. That was I just felt like I was really getting into my own then and really starting to move forward. We procured a TFM contract there uh across the three airports, so Manchester Airport Group, um still owned because it is still partly owned by the Manchester Council. Is it really?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah, Mago in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, MAGO, in it so um and and and it was just it was such an exciting going back into travel because previously I'd also been a travel agent, worked at Euro Tunnel, but not in an FM capacity. So I'd always been in travel and tourism.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And the RBKC was public sector from EasyJet, which is like really anything goes entrepreneurial into a very rigid governance, was quite challenging, and and sort of that FM structure was quite challenging. So I went to Stansted and then I got headhunted for Parliament, and I was like, oh yes, please.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How'd you go from EasyJet to Parliament to Parliament? That's a big jump.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Well, that's the great thing about FM, innit? Let's be honest. You know what I mean? There's not transferable skills, there's not many, there's not many instructions.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

It really was, but it was again, it was about the project management relocations, it was about so we we moved some, I think in the end it was about 2,000 staff uh across 12 buildings that we were doing from KA dilapidations, handing buildings back to landlord that went on for two years, and that was in lockdown, so it was really fascinating, and just like a pinnacle, so proud uh of what we did, and then we're just starting the next tranche now with the renovations that are coming up, large-scale moves, dilapidations, and also really making sure because I think there's a big thing in FM. Architects are brilliant, and project teams are brilliant, they deliver these wonderful buildings, but what they don't do, they don't then create the workspace, and that's where FM comes into its own and will make the building work, and that's the value that you add. You know everybody, you know everything, you're in every back door, yeah. Uh, and you and you're making sure that that building then comes online and works, so and protect the organization.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

So yeah, oh brilliant. So, what what kept you in the industry, in the space? Was it that that continuation of your career, moving into different environments? What what what do you think kept you engaged?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Um, it's just the FM people. There's so much fun. Yeah, so much fun. This is true, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

You know, it's not talking about you, Matt.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I mean, and you'd not have to be able to do that. You're not getting paid for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Absolutely. It's not paying you.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

No one's but I think as well, if you look at the opportunities that I've had, you know, I got to work in London, look where I'm working now, you know. House of comma, it's incredible. And you know, like I don't know anyone else who's had a career quite like mine, if I'm honest, yeah, who's had the opportunities that I've had, the autonomy, you know, because it's so specialist in a way, the no one really gets the value that you add until you're not adding the value anymore, and then all of a sudden it becomes blatantly obvious what what you do to add value to the organisation. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

No, without a doubt, without a doubt. Well, do you know so I've I think that's really interesting because what I this is what I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand about FM as a role. FMs are required everywhere in every sector, in every region, in every part of the world, in every part of the UK, for example, every industry, ev absolutely everything. So you know, you're you're only really um held back by your imagination in terms of where you can work.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Does that make sense? So, you know, if you're interested in, for example, this is what I think is great about the industry. If you're interested in sport, football, whatever, you can work towards being the FM at Twickenham or Trafford or City.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

No Trafford, Lincoln. You won't want to be no Lincoln Roof. Linky Roof. All Trafford's a challenge at the minute, mate. You got FM's one challenges. But the industry to talk about it, you know, we're only just over 40 years old as a as a recognised industry, and that's what amazes me about when you there is so many great people, and you meet so many, you know, you talk four very influential females who have probably been around that that length of time. Um yeah, and there is some great people in it, and I think that's what makes the industry so good to work in. The the people you meet, yeah. Yeah, Tony, Helen, yeah, well said, well said, I'm kicking now. You all know me anyway.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

No, but it's about the facilitator, I bring you all together. Correct. You're the glue.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

The glue. The glue. Yeah, I'm the glue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

But I would say as well, like we're one of the things that I would say now is we're about to go into a really interesting time with AI, smart technology, how we now move forward and bring buildings into that environmental sphere, and we've got all of I mean it it's perfect, you know. For me, my generation, I didn't have a mobile phone until I was 33 years old. But having said that, I find the excitement with the AI technology piece that's coming down the line now is going to be a fascinating challenge for our next, well, for us, but for those that are coming on behind because you hear the gasp from behind this from behind the cameras that said yeah, bone.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

33. Oh my god, what's that?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

I'm not really that old, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, I wasn't allowed one. You you are right though, um, in because we talk about this from time to time on the pocket. Like, I I have a specific view on this, and people don't really agree with me, but I I do think that we will see autonomous robots doing roles that human beings fundamentally do, and I think that it'll be here quicker than we realise. Yeah, I agree. Um, and and and like people always say, Um, and and this and it's something for debate, but people always say you can never replace people, you can never do this. You can well, I'll tell you something, they replace people in supermarkets pretty quickly. Yeah, um, and they replace people in other areas because what happens in business is it's all about the bottom line.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

But that's the process is what they've looked at. They've looked at the process, haven't you? I think there's and and I and I tend to I do agree with to a certain extent, but uh if you look at from an experiential perspective, it the lasting um experience if you're walking out of a building where somebody's actually saying have a great day, blah blah blah, or if you just need to know where the which way to get to the tube, yeah. And and if can can a I'm sure AI robots can do it, and they will do it to a certain extent. But that human talk.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

I don't know so much if it's that. When when I think about it, I'm thinking more about um roles that I that you would class as being dangerous or risk. I'm not disagreeing with that. So I'm what what I talk about, you know, I'm talking about you know, window cleaners hanging off buildings, I'm talking about people who build roads, I'm talking about people who um you know chop down trees, arborists and things things that are potentially dangerous, whereby businesses will go, that's a risk, I can spend X to take that risk away. And I only have to spend that every 10 years. So what I'm talking about, rather than FM specifically, I'm talking about the shock to the entire economy as this new technology comes in, in the way that it can come in, which will have a knock-on effect for FM because of the type of industry we are. So, you know, if you take people off the streets, for example, so what you know, it's it'll be like an extension of COVID and homeworking, and I I have no idea what it's going to look like, but I am telling everybody this right now that's around this room. In five years' time, the world will be very different to what it is actually. Yeah, it will without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

The pace and scale of it would just be, and I think that might, if you look from COVID, yeah, go back, and we were a nightingale at the venue. Look who had Teams, Zoom. It it wasn't there'd be a small number of people who would have capability.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

I'd never heard I didn't even know it worked, and it was really weird because Microsoft updated about four or five weeks beforehand, and suddenly Teams was there, it's like they planned it. Absolutely, yeah. I don't know when that was nice randomly.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, there's the conspiracy theory came absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

That's another conversation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

If you look at how that technology came in, yeah, and now that is absolute habit. Yeah, take the supermarkets, the self-checkout, blah blah blah. Some people are saying you're taking people's jobs, all that stuff. But uh but from a customer perspective, if you don't want to stand in a queue for X, it's great. Yeah, it's convenient. It's convenient. And you can I think there's a there's a mix to be had, you know, a happy medium, you know, it could be dangerous to a certain extent, AI at the moment, because we know, you know, greenwashing, you can call that, I think they call it hallucinating, don't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In AI. So these elements of it where we you know we're still learning about it a lot.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

It's not have you have you heard what um Elon Musk has said about AI and and where he sees it going? He he thinks that there will be abundance as as a direct result of it, because fundamentally what you're doing is you're taking the cost of labour, the cost of production, and you're taking you're kind of taking inflation out of the equation because you're utilising machines to do certain things, you know, grow food, produce things, manufacture things, and so on and so forth. So the cost of production will fundamentally fall through the floor, and what that'll do for everybody else is create abundance, and that's why they're having realistic conversations about things like high universal income and so on and so forth. Governments are having these conversations, they're having them for a reason, you know. Like we like I I think as as industry as an industry, you know, if we're not talking about it, I think it's a bit of a dereliction in duty. We need to be talking about it, and we need to talk about how that might impact the industry as a whole. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah, and I think uh again, I I'd say it's you've got to embrace it, you can't push it away because it's not going away. Right, it's not it's gonna, but it's you can use AI to take away some of the you know the waste or some of the mundane activities that you know how quick is it now to write a business case and blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, stick a contract through it, you know, like you get like where are the risks, you know, and and these are all things that we did, you know, yeah, three, four years ago manually, which which uh which I find fascinating. I I do yeah, I find it really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

But do you know what my pet hate is? Well, somebody in an office writing a chat GPT email to me too, I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

I find that and you know straight away, correct it's not from them, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And actually, well, you know, colleagues do it, you know. Not if you send I understand if you're sending a bit of a nasty gram to some supplier or whatever, and you need to sort of tell them in a professional manner, just need to double check nicely. No, but it is, isn't it? Yeah, and you run it through, we've all done it, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think you lose the human element of just pick up the phone or just let's have a conversation, don't send me some or type the email yourself.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yeah, well, that's it. Yeah, but yeah, I don't think anybody can know. Like, I honestly do believe, like, whatever we talk about here today. I mean, you've got Elon Musk saying there'll be abundance, and other people like me thinking that there'll be autonomous robots doing jobs that human beings. I think what we'll actually end up with will probably be something that we never expected, um, and that we couldn't predict and things like that. Because there's that old, because I used to talk, I used to have this old boss, right? Um, and I used to talk, I'm obsessed with um cryptozoology and UFOs and they I'll watch I'll watch any documentary on it, right? And but I didn't know about this rule, and I can't remember the scientist rule, but there was this scientific principle which taught about computers and how computers will always continue to better themselves. So I and and and I think the the the rule was like 10 10 times 10 times fold or something like that. Because what I was I remember having this discussion with, and I was like, well, there's got to be aliens, look how technology's advanced in the last 20 years, which is an argument that you'll hear about aliens coming to earth and all that stuff. But that computer principle is the same. So if it's 10 times year on year, and then you put AI into the mix, does that 10 times then become 30 times or 40 times or whatever? And are we seeing changes like technology as well? I read this other study, which is mind-blowing. That apparently, as soon as one new iPhone comes out, another new iPhone will come out the next day because the technology's got 30 times better than it was yesterday. Like like that, just becomes then it becomes mental, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Like, where do we get to eventually? You know, it's like red pill, innit?

SPEAKER_01 40:05

You know, you're wearing all kinds of you know, but I again I I watched something on the news. There was there was a marathon somewhere in I don't know, Japan this year, and and last year, well, marathon for robots, and it ran parallel to the main marathon. Yeah, so they had 200 robots in this marathon and it set the world record, it ran faster than the person doing the marathon. Now, the year before, so many robots crashed and went malfunctioned, and this time it, you know, they're all going, and it it's amazing, just that goes to show though, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Because like I think the the issue with um like robots was always the ability, like the human, like like being a hominid, you know, standing on two feet, being able to balance, use all your bits and people. Go on upstairs, yeah, go upstairs, do X, do Y, pour a drink, whatever. Yeah, but when you insert an element of intelligence into that machine, that intelligence then governs what the machine does.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Does that make sense? So suddenly, like let's say, for example, like Elon Muskie had those Optimus Primes things, didn't he? What he called Optimuses, have you seen them? Those robots. Um, and they were pulling drinks, for example, but people were controlling them in the background, and he had one or two that operated on AI. Like, if you take that principle of that whatever it is, like put a skin on it, maybe, and you could call it Dave, I don't know. Um but like in five years' time, you could fundamentally have that kind of principle, like you know, Dave the robot that looks like me or looks like you, because you know, we've gone full on into the future, like cutting your hair, so you know, serving your you know, you could do that. It sounds weird. I'm telling you, I'll tell you something. In five years' time, if you go to barbers and a robot and it's a robot giving you a skin fade, yeah. I want you to text me and you're going, Mark, you are right.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

I think I um um you asked me a couple of years ago where we're going with our what was what did I think? And I said, Well, I haven't got a crystal ball, we've got no idea. Nothing's changed, has it?

SPEAKER_02 42:02

You don't change it. No, it has changed, it's changed massively in the last two years.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Has your opinion changed? You don't know, you still don't know. I said, I don't know, I haven't got a crystal ball. I genuinely don't know where to do it.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

I think it's gonna be cool though. I'm quite excited for it. I'm I'm I I think we live through the most exciting time in human history.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

There's a chance we might blow ourselves up or the machines might do it, but it'll be exciting, won't it? Like to be fair, in terms of the innovation.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

It'll be crazy. I think the innovation is off the clock. You know, I again I was watching a programme about um you know the taxis in some uh somewhere in America, there's they're just the driverless taxis, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's you know, it's just it's it's absolutely crazy. Imagine that though, can't you? Yeah, getting in a taxi.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

We see them all around London now. You see it with you see them with the cameras on each side on the where the indicators are and all that stuff. They're testing them around London all the time. Oh are they, right? Yeah, driverless autonomous vehicles. I I'd say I don't think I can get in that. I wouldn't be comfortable. I don't even like it when a wife drives it.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

But it's alright, I don't know. So you would agree as well. But you get on a driverless train.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

You do. So if you think about it, it's just that it's that is a bit different.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

It's going down a track that's the signals and I'm not saying driverless car could be cut up or someone can walk in. I know it will stop, but yeah, the worry is what if it doesn't, you're still sitting in the back.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah, that I'm just thinking if you're getting it and you've had too much to drink and you you're a little bit sick, it can't tell you off and demand an X amount of money on the phone.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

They'll have some kind of sensor in there that makes you pay 50 quid before you get it. Before that car even gets released, they'll know how to take fines off you for doing something. Yeah, there'll be a deposit or something like that that you've got to be.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Or you've registered on the app or whatever, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, we got way off with that. I do apologize, guys. That's completely my fault. I get I get excited about AI. We know it's anyway, Tony, Tony, and uh tell me a little bit about why. You ended up in I mean I know your story anyway. Uh it's a cool story. Um and I know how you started as well, which I think is a cool story. So tell us how you started how you ended up in F and what kept you in it, um, and what advice you would give to someone trying to have over the so there's three questions in one that wasn't there. I'll start with the first one, tell us I started.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Then two years later security supervisor, and about three or four years a security supervisor, which I did enjoy, but it was shipped. Then uh my current director at the time was the facilities director. And he said, I'm snow under, I need a facilities manager, I need some help.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

So several of us applied, and I won the raffle. Raffles away!

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Raffles away.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

So yeah, I've been facilities manager there for about 10 years now. Yeah, absolutely love it. Um going back a couple, you just mentioned about the facilities jobs there everywhere. You could go anywhere in the world, yeah. You could have sport, like you said. Yeah, just by chance, I'm not job hunting, but just by chance, you know, if you're on LinkedIn, you get bombarded with junk emailed in don't you have something Mark Robinson has commented on this, I'll get things on their email. Yeah, but there was jobs come up, don't I? Am I just coming up at Premier League? Working in the Premier League studios. Oh that's I've never clicked on the I'm not looking for a job at home. Oh, it's about working at the Premier League studios. You know, I do lots of interviews at the whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're just within a split second of what can I just want to know what am I doing? I'm happy where I am. I could go there, it could be more money, but I'm really happy where I am. I could be unhappy there, couldn't I?

SPEAKER_02 45:50

That's the thing though, isn't it? Yeah, I know. Um if if if you're in a job that you enjoy with people that you enjoy working with, like sometimes it's best to stay there, I think, to be fair. But you are right, it's true. Like you can in FM, you can do whatever you wanted to do. You'll know when you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Yeah. That's my that's my mantra. You know when your next jump. Yeah, your next job. You know that. I think so. Person like that from my I always know when I it's time to move on.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Yeah. Yeah. You get pushed a lot of the way. I'm trying to get up.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

I'm trying to end it up there. I'm happy. I love the building, I love the pool. It's a good place to work for. So yeah. Yeah, that's that's what keeps you in there.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

What do you find the most interesting in terms of your role? Every day's different.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Like that, every day's I don't know what I'm gonna walk into, whether it's a problem or whether it's something good, or yeah. Some random guy's gonna walk in and that's gonna come up. When I ignored you, we touched the mouth and I'll come up for him. Come on, just go back.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

I think that was the time you realised I'm a sister.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Um so yeah, that's that's why I'm starting it. I I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

What advice would you give to someone that that was looking to move into the industry suddenly? Because obviously um you started as an officer, security officer. Um, a lot of people in FMF, actually, to be fair. There's quite a few people I think that come from that route, so it's kind of a natural progression. Yeah, you see a lot of it, actually, I think. Um I think that to be a security officer, you've got to be disciplined, you you've you've got to be acute, you've got to be able to understand your surroundings, you've got to pick up on problems, and so and an FM, I think, is kind of similar, similar skill set, I suppose. But what advice would you give to somebody that was looking to move from that security environment into a facilities management role?

SPEAKER_03 48:06

Or I would advise them to do it, go for it. It's a it's a good job. You're not doing ships anymore for a car. Um it's it's difficult because you you've mentioned before trying to get more young people involved. I I I don't know if I'm chunking how how I would get involved because I I think people would want to do this job. Yeah, but is anyone gonna give them that opportunity if you're young? It's a big responsibility, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 48:32

It's it is a big responsibility, but I think that the industry has to do more to entice young people to get involved. And that's that's not just the FM industry. I I think it needs to be led by government as well. It needs to be something that is uh an educational pathway that people can do in colleges and universities or even apprenticeships and so on. That's gonna make sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

We're talking about it's only two places in the UK who do an FM apprenticeship, yeah, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

That's mad, yeah, mad, absolutely mad. And if you look at you know the fact that we have, you know, what is an industry that has an aging well population of people within the industry? I think the average median age is about 50 plus across facilities managers. We don't have that influx of young people coming in. How do you resolve that? The only way that you can resolve that, um, I think is by the government engaging with you as an industry, by the government um incentivising colleges and universities to put on courses that offer qualifications in this space. I don't think it can be just theoretical learning because of the nature of the industry. It would have to be, you know, uh some kind of workplacement kind of paradox and incentives for businesses, whether that's tax relief, whether that's whatever, you know, to give young people a job within the space.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

People companies, organisations basically would need to take a chance on someone young and maybe give them an assistant facilities manager role to start with, and then you work your way up.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Yeah, yeah. But I think that that's what's quite interesting, because if you look at like your managing agents and things like that, they have that core setup as possible to where they're able to do that. But when you're looking at places like UGLE, for example, or House of Parliament, or even Manchester Central, you know, you're relying on having to recruit from within the industry in most places apart from yours. So yours is probably a little bit different because you came via the security room, you know. So the the government I think has to do more, you know, and the government doesn't do as much as I'm not looking at you, Air Ellen, it's not your fault. I'm sure you're telling them anyway in the background, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

I'll make it I'm actually I'm actually looking at it now take over the FM coordinates. I've just put a business case on top exactly about uh the FM coordinated leaving because it's got nowhere else to go. So I've changed that position five times in nine years. So I guess they just get to a point and there's no career progression, you know, they want to move into that next role. Yeah, or move on because we want more money, because it's a ceiling on that role.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

So I I I went to a conference and Steve Gladwin um spoke about about bringing young people in, and he he he mentioned this apprenticeship. This is we we've got and he was talking to our senior FMs about we have got a duty ourselves to try and drive young people into the industry. And there's a lot of good people out there doing that, going to schools, etc. Raising the profile of FM like like yourself, Matt. So I've uh you know, I when this young lady resigned from us, I I went and and sort of did a bit of research into this university, spoke to the university, and it's all like that I'll actually find you the candidates. You know, you write the job description, and and the modules are everything that we do every day. Yeah, you know, so they're gonna be working in the in the venue, etc. Hopefully, if the business gets signed off, etc. etc. Yeah. Um so there is opportunities out there, and I think for me it's about finding the right person. If you do it this way, it's finding someone who's gonna be motivated driven. We we've all had I've had apprentices, yeah. We've I've got an electrical apprentice, we've got two electrical apprentices, and we've got other apprentices in the venue catering and chat, etc. etc. But there's nothing worse when you're interviewing young people and you're saying that and we were doing it about what apprentices you are. It's electrician, oh yeah, what a working IT. Yeah, you've come for an electrician's apprentice, but and they just do it because they think they've got to do it and they don't really know what the job's about. Yeah, and I want someone who wants it to do, wants to do it because it's a career of choice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

It's a lack of understanding, I think, as well. I think they just don't understand what what what it is because let's be honest, if you're an FM, you are a little bit of an IT specialist, you're a bit of a an electrician, you're a bit of a plumber, you're a bit of a this, you're a bit of a that. Yeah, well, you are a little bit eye, you know, because you have to understand the inner workings of those roles.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Do you not think every person every human being thinks that a great I'm a good cook, I look after my house, I change the light bulbs that I can do that job.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

I'm not saying it's an easy job, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that an FM overrates loads of different special that's what I mean. I don't mean I'm not making what I mean is you know, those those services that are key to the operation of a business of a building, such as HVAC units, you know, such as electrical installments, such as IT functionality.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

That's what I was gonna question when you said I was thinking IT, I don't get involved in it, but

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

But if you can't get FM people into this or young people into this profession with this podcast, well uh we're we're going down the wrong street.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

All right, well that's high praise. I'll I'll take that as it was meant, to be fair. It's just meant to be entertaining. But um Helen, have you enjoyed it?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

Yeah, it's been really interesting actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

And thank you for joining us. It's really nice. And your career is so interesting as well, um, in terms of what you've done and how you've ended up in the industry. So thank you for joining us today. Tone. Yes, Tone, mate. How's it going? Of course I enjoyed it. Yeah, it was great, yeah, great fun. Absolute pleasure to have you here today. Um, but thank you very much, guys. Really, really appreciate it. Um, as ever, um, that brings us to the end of another episode. I know we didn't talk a great deal about discovering heritage buildings, but um, we did get into the crux of it a little bit. I'd like to thank my guests today. Um, it's been another fantastic episode. I know that we completely veered on several subjects, including AI and randomly Steve Coogan. Um, but as ever, that's that's it. So if you can't be good, be bad. Bye bye.