#13 - Discovering Consultancy - Darien Jay, Debra Watson and Sharlene Rhoden

Welcome to Episode #13 of The Facilities Management Exchange

Today we’re joined by Darien Jay, Sharlene Rhoden and Debra Watson for a deep dive into the world of Facilities Management consultancy — how people enter the industry, what keeps them there and how relationships, value creation and adaptability define long-term success.

This episode explores three very different career journeys into FM, and what they reveal about the realities of consultancy, networking, and staying relevant in a rapidly evolving sector.

In this episode expect:
• How each guest found their way into Facilities Management 
• The honest answer to what keeps people in the industry
• Why great consultants are defined by being problem solvers 
• The role of relationships in FM 
• How supplier ecosystems often drive the most innovative thinking in FM
• The importance of networking
• Honest reflections on over-promotion
• Why FM is still largely meritocratic 
• The growing impact of AI and technology
• How COVID reshaped working patterns

This is a candid, practical and insight-packed conversation on what consultancy really looks like inside FM — from career lessons and commercial realities to the future of technology, talent and workplace culture.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:07

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, we're back. Welcome to another episode of the Facilities Management Exchange. Um, great to see you all here today. Um, as ever, do us a favor if you could like, follow, and share the podcast on whatever medium you're watching it on. Um that's really, really important because that helps us grow and we really want to grow um with the meaningful message that we're trying to pop out to the um UK marketplace about how great FM is and how great a career it is for young people entering the industry. Anyway, we've got a great show for you guys today. Today, we are discovering consultancy. We're joined by Charlene Roden. Hi, Charlene, how are you doing? Hi, Mark, how are you? I'm really well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Good.

SPEAKER_07 0:58

Deborah Watson, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yeah, I'm great.

SPEAKER_07 1:01

You having a good day?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah, yeah, so far.

SPEAKER_07 1:03

Good stuff. And the incomparable Darien J. How are you doing, Darien? Very well, sir. Thank you. Have you had a good day?

SPEAKER_06 1:09

It's been a busy day. Have you? Where have you been? I started in Malibone, over to Millbank. Uh really? Here for the last couple of hours.

SPEAKER_07 1:18

Wow, so quite busy then. Lots of work going on? Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy. Yeah, that's been a mad start to 2026, hasn't it? Has everyone experienced that?

SPEAKER_04 1:26

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:27

Not just me?

unknown 1:28

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

No, no.

SPEAKER_07 1:29

It's been so busy, my cholesterol's gone off.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Can't join the dots there.

SPEAKER_07 1:35

No, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. And anyway, Debs, what about yourself? What's your day been like? And where have you been today?

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Busy been in uh client site in Mayfair. Yeah. Um, and then um over this way. So yeah, just busy clienting and sorting things out and setting the worlds to right.

SPEAKER_07 1:52

Yeah, love the term clienting, by the way. Clienting. That's getting stolen. Um Charlene, what about yourself? What what you've been up to? It was firstly it was your birthday yesterday, wasn't it? It was. Happy birthday!

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Thank you, thank you everyone. Did you have to be able to do that? 21 again, 21 again. I did. It was chill, yeah. Yeah, definitely 21 again. Yeah, it was um it was it was quite chill. I I had some work to do. Consultant, you never stop working, yeah, from my experience. Um, so I had some work to do, but I did get a chance to have a spa in the evening. It was lovely.

SPEAKER_07 2:22

Lovely, fantastic. Massage and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Not a massage, you know, just a spa. Just a spa.

SPEAKER_07 2:28

Massage next week.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Jacuzzi sauna. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:32

I like a massage though. Do you know something? I went and had a massage once. I went and had a sports massage. I didn't really know what it was, right? And I got on the table. My god, that hurt. They're quite um, arm and cash, I was getting beaten up, like it was horrible. Like I wanted to get off the table, and she's like, Oh, you're quite naughty, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

I'm like, Space the keys, you're meant to try and relax while they're doing it.

SPEAKER_07 2:54

No, sports different, therapeutic, relax, sports massage. There you're right in there. Relax, no, it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

The more you relax, the easier it is for them to unknot your muscles.

SPEAKER_07 3:05

I've never experienced anything like that. I was supposed to go back the week after I cancelled the appointment.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

It was too hard.

SPEAKER_07 3:10

Yeah, yeah, it's just too hard. I'm too old for that kind of rubbish now, to be fair. Anyway, guys, we're to to discover consultancy. So let's throw out a really simple questionnaire, which I think is um something that you should all be able to answer. Tell us how you got started in the world of facilities management. Should we start with you, Shallon?

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Yeah, that's great. Um, yeah, so I started a long time. I'm not gonna say when, because it's my birthday yesterday and you're gonna be given there one. But let's say 25 plus years, so a while ago, I started in facilities management.

SPEAKER_07 3:41

Um you were like minus four then.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

There you go. There you go. Um I fell into it sideways, like most people say. Yeah. Um, I was working for a um charity and they needed someone to help with facilities. I was working on reception at the time, yeah, and the facilities managers asked me to give her a hand, done my BIFM level one.

SPEAKER_07 4:06

Oh, back in the day when it was BIFM as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Yeah, not IWFM, it's B I F M.

SPEAKER_07 4:11

Yeah, I remember the B I I used to look calling it Biffam. Yeah, just doesn't have the same rank in the back.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yeah, the Institute of Facilities Management.

SPEAKER_04 4:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

So yeah, so um started doing started doing some bits and pieces for her, um, maintaining properties, um, and it was all done on on Excel then, you know, there was no sort of fancy systems or anything.

SPEAKER_07 4:33

Yeah, no cloud-based technology to support.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Nothing like that. Um, I then moved to a managing agent and started doing a bit more um compliance work, so health and safety was looking after sort of the um Carnaby Street, that area. I think another manager's agent as well. Possibly. Um so yeah, doing quite a big piece over there, and then um, yeah, just sort of got into it from there, um, setting up all their systems. Yeah, never left.

SPEAKER_07 5:03

Been here ever since.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Never left, went into um estates and general manager, you know, general management of big buildings, mobilising big buildings. Yeah, and yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:13

Brilliant. And I think we'll we'll we'll come to how you all you know took that brave step to to become a consultant later on in the podcast. But Debs, what about yourself? How do you because there's a bit there's a there's a bit of a twang in your accent, weren't they?

SPEAKER_02 5:25

I'm from Australia. Um I'm a proud Australian as well, even though I live here and this is my home now. I still um I always support Australia in the sport, so I'm sorry, but cricket, rugby, whatever we're playing. That's all you've got as far as I can just say that's probably pretty much it, because we we don't do anything on the football front, really. So um so yeah, the soccer rooms got better for a bit, didn't they? They weren't too much. Better, but it you can't really beat English football. I'm so agree, I'm right up there.

SPEAKER_07 5:54

Three lions on our chest.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah, yeah. I'm on my three lions shirt as well. So I'm I'm geo citizen, so um so I I do struggle uh to decide on who's winning, just swap the shirts at the last minute if needed. Yeah. Um but yeah, so I started um my career in human resources. So that's where I started in Australia when I was a young whiffersnipper.

SPEAKER_07 6:15

Um I think that's the first time actually that we've had somebody that started in human resources transition or FM actually on the on the show. I'm sure it happens out there, it's just the first time we've had it, so that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Yeah, so I I started in HR and um recognised that I just didn't really I didn't really like that side of it. I liked the system side of HR more so than than the actual processing of things. So then um I I started working on a project for a company as a HR specialist from a functional specialist into software. Yeah. Um so it was an ERP solution. Um, so it's an Oracle product. And then I really liked it. And it was just I'm a very process-oriented person, so I I really just thrived on it. So I decided to leave um my company and become a consultant for Oracle through different agents and um can I ask how old you were then? Uh 24, 24.

SPEAKER_07 7:09

I was quite quite brave at 24 to take on a kind of a self-employed role.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, and I just um decided that it was it was what I wanted to do and it was an opportunistic market and it was it was good money. So I just sort of thought, yeah, I'm young, I'm young, and um, you know, no responsibilities as such. So then I I literally went from there and just started working on that for a while. Um big projects, long hours, and then when I wanted to have a family, I thought, well, I can't do that anymore. Yeah um because I can't, you know, I can't go. I worked all over Australia, lots of different places in in the world doing different pieces of work. Um, and I just decided, well, I can't do that anymore. I need to switch things around. And my husband works in FM as well, so I already s had known lots about FM. So I'm not I'm never one that says I fell into FM because I I already knew what I was getting into, so I I sort of chose that route. Um, but what I've done is I've taken my change management, which is which I learnt through HR, and then working through um ERP projects as a consultant, I do the change piece, and to me, I think that transitions to any industry. It doesn't matter whether it's FM or finance or wherever, everyone has change and transformation. So I both agree. And and so that's for me where I sort of linked into FM and started looking at um different sorts of things within FM. And then um about 15 years ago, uh set up a consultancy company in the UK and then just grown through, you know, we have some big, big clients, but we're only a small boutique company. Yeah, yeah. Um but we're very specialised in what we do, so um, so I sort of and I love FM. I think it's a fantastic industry. Every day is a different day. That's true. Drama on one front, you know, praise on the other, and you know, there's just lots of different things, lots of different clients. So it's not industry-specific FM is, but you can work in manufacturing, you can work in hospitals, you can work in banking, you can work in high-end retail. It's across everything, and that's what makes it really, really interesting to work in.

SPEAKER_07 9:19

I don't disagree. Okay, and Darien, what about yourself? Good sir.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

Because I couldn't find the proper job, Mark. I started almost. It was um it was my first real job out of school. So um I was at uni, and part of my degree I needed a like a placement year.

SPEAKER_07 9:38

Right.

SPEAKER_06 9:39

And I don't know what to do, I was like 20 or something. Uh I don't even know what FM was really. Yeah, yeah. Um but my father had worked in FM and when I got quite desperate, I asked him and he suggested I speak to someone. Um and long story short, I I ended up on the as an undergrad at Balfour BT in their FM company, right? Which has gone through a few iterations, but it's now Equans.

SPEAKER_07 10:06

Yeah, Equan's is, yeah, that's correct.

SPEAKER_06 10:07

Um but um at the time it was Balfour BT and they put me in a really cushy role where it was like risk management, but it really meant making sure all the FMs told HQ about what risks were on their site so they couldn't monitor it. So I got to swan around the country training people on this software with very limited exposure um to risk to actual risk. Um but I obviously did enough of a good job where they said um they'll pay me to come back um pay for my final year if I came back afterwards as a grad.

SPEAKER_07 10:38

Oh, so they paid for your final year out of university? Yeah. Well that's what I said.

SPEAKER_06 10:42

This was back in the day when it wasn't like 40 grand a year.

SPEAKER_07 10:46

It's much more affordable here, could you provide enough for that? When I was younger, it was free, I think. You just had to pay for your accommodation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:53

Um but I did that, um, and this was around the time of the first like the financial crash, like so at 08, 09 time. And by the time it was I finished my degree, the the company said, Oh, we might have to delay the grad scheme. Oh no way. Okay. Um luckily I had some connections in the company by that point, so I made some calls and they found me um role like demobilising a contract effectively. Right. Um, which was a temp role. From that, I managed to wheedle myself into procurement. Yeah. Um, and then they said, Oh, the grand scheme's starting up.

unknown 11:33

Right.

SPEAKER_06 11:34

How about you do your first six months in procurement in supply chain?

SPEAKER_04 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:38

Fine. So they shipped me off to London. Um, and I did that for six months, and then I remember going to my boss saying, It's been really great, thanks, but I'm I'm about to shoot off somewhere else now. And that was a moment I sold my soul to FM procurement. I remember he said, Um, can you stay here? I said, Not really. Yeah. He said, No, but could you if you really wanted to? Well, depends what what it looked like.

SPEAKER_07 12:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:06

And yeah, ultimately he said, extra five grand in the company car. Yeah. And I think I was like 22, 23 at the time. And then um, so I came off the grant scheme after six months and and never any left. Left on procurement after that. What was what was the company car, Darion, out of interest? It was a BMW one C.

SPEAKER_07 12:26

That's not bad, is it? You know, I would have expressed impressed the girls and all that stuff, which is always good. So what Darien, what what keep what keeps you in it? Because obviously you've progressed during that period as well. So so and I'll and I'll I'd like everybody to have a chat about this. What what keeps us in this industry? Because it's it's it's quite dynamic, it's quite it's quite an interesting one.

SPEAKER_06 12:48

That's the money.

SPEAKER_07 12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:52

I appreciate it honestly. Um it's a really interesting question. I think my reasons have evolved over time. Yeah. Initially, it was it was always something to learn, there was always an extra functional angle part of FM to get used to, to figure out how it works. These days I get much more enjoyment out of running the company than perhaps doing the do because I've been doing it for 20 years or something. Yeah. You know, still get involved when I need to, but it's it's going out, meeting people, yeah, finding new business, doing this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:29

That that's what you know gets me excited.

SPEAKER_07 13:31

So the engagement is more for you these days in terms of putting the business out there. What what about yourself, Deborah?

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Um I I like to define myself as a problem solver. So I like going into sites where it's really broken, or they just can't work through how to find the end solution. So and I like that, I like that challenge for me. Um the the money in the industry is is good. You get paid well.

SPEAKER_07 13:56

It's very important to say that as well for young people that may be considering it correct.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

You have a different skill set as a consultant to an a normal average FM worker as such. So you have to be on your A game all the time. Um, so I I like the problem solving, um going in, trying to find a solution. And as I said before, as I'm process oriented, I think, well, if we're doing it in eight steps, how can I get it done in five? And yeah, can you only touch it once? Why are you touching it five times? Like so, I like um to work through those types of issues in FM and um does it need procurement? If it doesn't need procurement, if you've got a contract, how can we fix it? How can we improve it? And it's about that relationship and fairness to a supplier from a client's per se perspective. Because sometimes a client will say, Oh, the supplier is not doing A, B, C, D. But I thought, well, it's not in their contract, you know, so you've got to make it fair and reasonable for both. Um, so it's just that problem solving for me is a real uh important part because every contract that you work on or every client you go to, it's similar because that it's an FM type environment, but it it lends itself to different buildings have different types of issues, um, different industries have different types of issues. So it's just trying to work through all of those, and yeah, it it's just interesting. Every day is like I say, it's a different day.

SPEAKER_07 15:20

So two different responses, Charlene. What about yourself? What what keeps you engaged? What keeps you going daily?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Well, I was gonna say, similar to Deborah, I do like I don't like a problem, but I you know, I don't mind getting stuck in when there is a problem. Yeah, um, I do like a bit of problem solving. Um the industry's just changing so much due to legislation, due to um sort of the way the the country's being run. Um, you know, COVID had a massive effect on sort of occupancy in buildings. We had to get really creative with how we were uh sort of bringing people back into the buildings and into London and other you know cities. Um so I mean, even that, it's it's just so creative and so interesting. Um there's so much to be done. Um, and I really enjoy building relationships. So you meet so many different interesting people, you know, all the different um sort of provide you know, pro everyone who provides a service into the building has got so much to offer, so much insight. Um, and I really enjoy sometimes when you you're dealing with something, can someone who's completely kind of not involved in it, but will just say, actually, have you thought about doing it like this? Because I sit here and I see this every day, and you know, so I just find it really, really interesting. Um, so yeah, I mean I I love FM, I love, I absolutely love it. Um, I thought a few times, oh you know, I may go off and do something else, but actually, no, my heart is here. I've recently read more to compliance because I find it quite interesting. Postgram fair.

SPEAKER_07 16:56

Hang on, you find compliance intro.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

I do actually, I do. I think in my older years.

SPEAKER_07 17:01

I think I think we found a uh a rare bird who wasn't like that. Compliance.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Well, yeah, in my older years, I guess it's um safety is a big thing.

SPEAKER_07 17:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

And you know, I've I've got a family and I've got other responsibilities outside of my business. And um, I want to make sure that you know we're doing things as safely as possible so that you know everyone could be comfortable when they're using you know public spaces and buildings, so yeah, I mean I find it quite fascinating. So that's a whole new angle that I've recently sort of really gone into and really been looking at is compliance and find it very, very interesting. Um, but yeah, FM.

SPEAKER_07 17:39

And how do you guys as consultants, because obviously you're not backed by a large monolithic organization in the same way other elements of FM are, how do you guys stay abreast of market changes? How do you how do you keep your your finger on the pulse? What do you do that's that's perhaps different to um other people in the industry?

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Well, I'm connected to quite a few people in the industry. Um, you know, sort of I have a lot of forums and um sort of meet up with people, still go to people's buildings, see what's going on in different buildings, um, see what people are doing. Um, and then also I do a lot of research, do a lot of reading, um, do um go to forums and events where sort of uh you know sort of uh industry standard sort of FM shows and security shows and bits like that. Yeah. Um and then podcasts, they're great now as well.

SPEAKER_06 18:30

How many good ones?

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Yeah, there's one or two. Yeah, there's one or two. There's a great one.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

It's it it's it's relatively new on the market. It's great guns, it's going great guns.

SPEAKER_07 18:41

I've heard that one as like great guests.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:44

Fantastic guests, fantastic guys, you know, they're great ones, and perhaps perhaps one that may not be invited, but I think it's right.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

You have to stay um abreast of what's happening in the industry because as a consultant, like I said, you you have to be on your A game all the time, and you have to be almost at one step in front because people look to you to advise and give information. So you do have to do a lot of reading, um, know what's going on with standards, legislation, um, who are the new players in the market, what are the bad stories that you hear, and so you think, well, have I got any clients that are using those services if a company's you know in in a bit of trouble? Um, those type of things I think you just have to stay ahead of the market, and it is about information. And there are some great sources of um FM magazines out there, like you say, um, some podcasts besides this one, I don't know what other ones are out there, but right answer. Um, yeah, but I just think it it's it's the reading and and going to different conferences and just speaking with people because it's it's FM is about relationships and building those relationships with other people. Um, you know, if you if you're looking for a specific service and you think, oh, I can go through my LinkedIn profile and think I've got five of those types of people, I can reach out to them and give me this type of information. Um, you know, and it's about building those relationships so that you can build the trust with those people and then think when you need them, you can call in them back to come and help you to deliver what it is you need to deliver on your client sites or whatever. So it's staying that you know at the sharp end of information and being able to give that back to your clients because you know they're expecting you to know that stuff, you know, they they want you to know it, that's why you outsource to a consultant in the first place because you don't have the in-house knowledge or time.

SPEAKER_07 20:43

Yeah, what's quite interesting? I mean, Darren, you you you probably know this that that that can be a challenge, can't it? Because you know, when you work for a larger beast, you you get that kind of fed down through information and newsletters and colleagues, I've used this piece of kit and things like that. So that's a challenge, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 21:00

Yes, it can be.

SPEAKER_07 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:01

And to borrow a quote from a film, I think the art of good consultancy is being a good middleman, yeah, person. Anyway, um we we as consultants we're uniquely placed to have exposure to client and supplier side.

SPEAKER_07 21:16

Yeah. And very true.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

Whilst there's a lot of our clients have some really useful insights and ways they want to develop their contracts, I find a lot of the good ideas, new ways of working, new innovations um come from supplier side.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:33

Especially from the BD team who need to innovate to be relevant and to win business. Which is why I I really make effort to meet with likes of yourself and and other people in B D roles throughout the FM sector on a fairly regular basis.

SPEAKER_07 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:50

So we can chew the fat, so we can find out what's going on in sector specific, whether it's cleaning, security, maintenance.

SPEAKER_07 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:59

And then we can Sound really clever when we go back to our clients and pretend that these are all our ideas. But yeah, well, some of them are, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Yeah, you want to think some of them are your own ideas.

SPEAKER_06 22:08

Maybe we reshape them.

SPEAKER_07 22:10

That is quite an interesting approach, though, you know, to actually um you know leverage what what BD teams do and who they speak to and things like that. And then because you are correct, actually, they they do, I suppose, isn't it? Because we're we're talking about it 24-7, I suppose, in our respective lines of inquiry, I suppose.

SPEAKER_06 22:27

I think my a lot of my role is consolidating those good ideas as new ways of thinking, understanding which players are in in the market are are doing a good job for other clients who are similar to my clients, yeah, and then framing that and sending it back to the client saying, Okay, I think this is suitable for you, this is a good idea, what do you think? Yeah, and sometimes they'll tell me to to bugger off, and sometimes they think they like it, and we'll build it from there. Yeah, of course. I'm I'm not gonna pretend that I come to the table with a whole bag of fresh ideas that I've come up with myself every single time. Yeah, occasionally it happens, but but yeah, it is leveraging the network around us.

SPEAKER_07 23:05

Yeah, but then once again, that's it that just boils down to that community about having that that network, those people that you can lean on, ask questions to. Absolutely. Because because none of us, none of us have an answer for every question. We we all need to lean on someone from time to time. And and I guess if if you know, if you are a young individual looking to move into the industry, and I think we do need to talk about networking guys and how important that is, how has networking impacted your careers um over the years?

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Oh wow, there's been so many people that have been sort of sponsors for me who I haven't even known in, you know, they've been I've told them what I'm doing and they've gone out there and they've gone to other people and gone, Charlene's doing this, you know, let's get her on board to help with this project or let's get you know, it's so important. Sometimes you think, oh no, I'll just stay in my own little bubble and just you know, weasel away at what I'm working on and not say anything, but actually you need to get out there, you need to speak to people, you need to let people know what you're doing. Podcasts, things like this, you know, actually um be quite public about what you're doing um to the industry so that when people need your services, they know where you are and they're able to connect with you. Um yeah, it's it's so important.

SPEAKER_06 24:20

Shining spot on that. I think you can't separate networking and sales and people pretend that they're not the same thing, but but they really are. Whether you're selling your company, your brand, or yourself as an individual, networking is is the best way of doing it in our sector, I would say. And that's just getting exposure. If you're coming into this sector, age 18, 20, with no network to speak of, the best place to start is meeting people for coffee, is going to events, building a personal brand, learning from others, taking all their good ideas and their ways of thinking to deciding which is the right route for you.

SPEAKER_07 24:59

Well, people buy from people, and and I think that that's incredibly true. They're much likely they're more likely to buy from people that have a great service or product behind them or a great element of knowledge and so but but that fundamental piece is that they need to like you first. They they want to think, I can work with this person, and what's the best way to do that is to go to to networking events and uh and you know put yourself about a bit, you know. That's that's the way I do it. What what networking in the industry would you guys recommend or what has worked for you?

SPEAKER_03 25:33

What is uh uh sort of property? Um it covers all different sort of sectors, so commercial. Yeah, it was in um Lord's Cricket Ground. Oh, really? When I went a couple of weeks ago, it was really, really good event. Because what I liked about it, it wasn't just a speaker at the front, it was actually round table. So actually, you got to speak with there was people from you know, sort of different um areas of FM, yeah, quite senior, and you got to sit in a room, speak to them about their experiences with some on AI and different things, and you know, what are you doing within your industry? What sort of um boundaries have you got up with sort of managing AI and different bits? And it was good to be able to um just have an open discussion in a more relaxed forum rather than it being someone just speaking at you. You were able to actually talk and have a round table discussion. That's the first time I've attended that event. Really? Um it's got quite a high price point, so I was lucky enough to be able to get an invite to that event.

SPEAKER_07 26:36

Check it out first, I think.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

Yeah, exactly. But I definitely think it's one of the one of the better ones, and it's a shame, really, it's not more accessible, I would say, for more junior FMs, because I think that would be fantastic for them to be in a room with you know more experienced people in the industry.

SPEAKER_07 26:52

People that have that capability so that they can learn from and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 26:56

That's really interesting. I've not brought past that before. What about you guys? Anything?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Um, I do a lot of just like the FM type stuff that you have industry-wise, where you'll have stuff at the XL and um workplace and things like that. I think when you can go to, you know, whether it's health or NHS type environments, those types of things, you you just can pull different things and meet different types of people. So you've got all levels of FM. You'll have FM managers, but then you'll have directors of estates that have, you know, a 60 million pound budget that you will get to have a chat with, and his issues are very different to the the young person who's who's at the bottom there. And um also some of the the European ones are are quite interesting because how they manage their FM is slightly different to us, and and their take on young people is very different to how we are in the UK as well.

SPEAKER_07 27:49

Explain that. Explain how do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

So last year, was it this year, Trondheim? It was I think it was at the back end of last year, um, the Euro FM conference. There was, I couldn't believe how many young people that were there. There was a from different universities, so I think they don't pay for their ticket because it's a paid function. Right. So I think they get invited to go. Um, and they had a workshop themselves, so there was about 20 students, and they were given a task, and they had two days to go away and present, and then on the last day of the conference they had to stand up and present, and you know, um, all of the findings that they had from their category that they had to go and research. And really, it was just interesting for the acceptance of young people and the opportunity for young people to be in those environments where you know, and at the end of the conference they said every time you go to a conference, take a young person with you. Um, you know, and and I think that the same. I have two daughters and they both work in FM. Um, so any opportunity that there is for a conference, one daughter works for me and the other one works for another company, but I try and get them both to come to function so that they can network, so they can understand and meet people and from different levels because it's not, you know, they just know consultancy from me because I've grown up in FM. They're like a I I always think they're like the the babies of FM, like the whole family is an FM, so it's a very interesting Sunday night meal.

SPEAKER_07 29:14

That's quite yeah, it's quite interesting.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Talk about compliance and things like this and new legislation, and it's like, can you pass the gravy? And that's like, you know, so it's a very even um one of my daughters' partner is a building services engineer, so it's just it's just growing an FM. But yeah, it it's for me, I love it. I love watching young people have an opportunity to actually meet senior people and where senior people think, oh, they're they're interesting, let's embrace them because let's face it, it's it's it's an old industry now, and people are getting older and older, and it's just such a shortage of I don't think it's a shortage of people, young people, it's the opportunity for them to actually move into the roles. There's lots of apprenticeships for trade, but where's the apprenticeships for you know, like a an FM graduate? Like, you know, how do they get into it and how do they actually get exposed to all of those areas that we know as consultants in FM? It's and that's what the bigger companies need to look at is how do we get those people because there's loads of students all qualified, they're all finished, but they don't have that stepping stone into the organisations, especially operational FM.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah, there's not any clear sort of um sort of guide you know guidelines of how you can get in through an apprenticeship or anything like that. Um the surveying side, yes, that's always been there, and it's getting more accessible, but yeah, the FM side, like sort of working in building, it's about taking a chance for young people as well, because you you know you you can't expect a young person to come on board and oh, where's you've got no experience, but I'm just brand new, I don't have any experience, I need the experience.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Can someone please give me the experience? But it's taking the time because when you're functioning as a a consultant or whatever role you are in FM, it's very difficult to slow down and spend time teaching someone when you think, oh, I can do it in 10 minutes. Why do I want to spend two hours teaching you how to do it when I need to do it in 10 minutes? Yeah, it's trying to get the the older people within FM or the established people to give some time back to educate those young people so that they have the opportunity to come through.

SPEAKER_07 31:34

So Yeah, I mean we've we spoke about this quite a bit on the podcast, and we the last podcast that we recorded, we actually had an individual on that that was looking to move into the market um in the UK because they came from Nigeria. But what she was saying is that um in Nigeria they actually have specific educational platforms in high school that focus on FM and careers, the careers advisors will talk about it and so on and so forth. Which to me shows a real lack um of the education system in the UK to perhaps do something similar. Because nobody has that conversation. Um, I don't think you're either a nurse or a doctor or a whatever, but you know, like people pe and and I think as well, there's a there's a massive misconception about the industry in terms of what you can earn, what you can't earn, what type of roles are available. Everybody has this, well, it's a janitor, innit? You know, no, it's not a janitor, you know. There's so many varied roles across the industry. So, you know, what we're trying to do with with FMX is actually create a space for young people to actually go, hang on a second, he owns a business and he he he operates in FM. So does she? Can I do that? Do you know what I mean? That's that's the whole point of it, but it should start in schools and colleges and education. I think the average edge in um in FM right now is around 50 plus. That's the average age across the industry.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

So it's not us. No, not you guys. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 32:58

Um, but it is it is it is a concern. Quite telling, isn't it? Yeah, well, and as well, like engineers apparently is even worse. Um, so so we we did a show on engineering once again. I don't want to harp back, but um the show that we did on engineering, the guys that came on um were very, very concerned about the engineers coming through the system because like they said, they see all these buildings going up in London, and they're like, there will literally be no engineers to run those buildings in 10 years' time. Yeah, uh, because there just won't be. So it's how do we fix it? Darion, what's your plan? Just use AI, AI, yeah, solve everything, won't we?

SPEAKER_06 33:36

Um, yeah, it's a I mean, I don't have the answer to that. That's a very expensive question. It is, yeah. I think the one one of the things that I really like about the FM sector, and our business has kind of morphed away from pure FM, so I'd say probably 30-40% of our business is is completely separate from that now. But one thing I like about FM is it's very meritocratic from my experience. If someone's good and they've got common sense, then they can be promoted quickly and into pretty senior roles. And maybe this is a slightly controversial opinion, but I've never been a big advocate of formal FM degrees or training because I still think it's mostly a common sense game.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:21

If you've got a bit of nouse about you, you can learn, like most of us did, I'm sure, how to how a cleaning contract operates at a certain level, or how an ME not have to be an engineer to be able to tender an ME contract, thankfully. Yeah. Because I was out of business.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Common sense is not very common, is it? Oh yes.

SPEAKER_06 34:41

No, this is on the decline. Yeah, it is on the decline, isn't it? Yeah. But to replace you know skill sets like engineering, that's that's a whole different challenge, and you do need to be qualified, capable, skilled. I guess it's a matter of how do we appeal to the next generation that this is an exciting sector, an exciting place to work. Part of that is by shouting about the buildings that you can work in. Yeah, you know, I haven't been able to do it for a while because we haven't worked in that for a while. But they used to talk about 25 street, the walkie-talkie, that's one that we um procured when it was Greenfield. Right. It's a great building. Every time we go into London, I worked on that building. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we do the same with Batsi and King, I'm name dropping now, King's Cross. But just the same being a small part of these huge buildings. Yeah, if you're an engineer and you get to work in in them on them every day, every week. That's a great place rather than being a plumber doing resie or something, some guy's house every day. Yeah. Yeah, that's quite I would imagine that's quite exciting for for someone who's 18 thinking about where I want to be. Oh, of course, yeah. I don't think we shout about that glamorous side of FM, perhaps enough.

SPEAKER_07 35:52

Well, that that is a that's about the messaging, isn't it? And and and also where's the messaging going? Is the messaging going in the right direction? So is it going in the wrong direction? You know, because I think I think because we do we've had people on the show as well that also talked about overpromotion. Have you guys come across that before? Whereby individuals across the industry that perhaps aren't as qualified as they should be are getting overpromoted because they don't want to lose them to somebody else, or and and that's a direct contribution of the shortage across the industry of skilled people as people retire. Um, how is that something you guys come across in your daily guitar? And what's your view of that?

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah, you you do see um well I I see where you have someone who gets promoted off the tools into the office, and then all of a sudden there are four layers up, and you think they don't know anything about management, um, just basic, basic things that you think they don't understand how contracts are put together, they don't understand KPIs, service level agreements, you know, the whole process around that. So it is sometimes that over promotion where you know at the bottom level they're fantastic, at the top level they're brilliant because they have the insight and the vision, but that middle management sometimes is is lacking credibility in in some areas. So it's it is a bit controversial, but you do meet some great ones. Oh, yeah. But equally, you will meet some people that you think you're just so overpromoted that you haven't got the the foundation block to actually build upon because the foundation isn't there.

SPEAKER_06 37:25

We've all seen it, I'm sure, where you've you see a head of FM, you know, how would they end up there? Oh, they were a receptionist and then got put in as office manager because the the company grew quickly, and but we need an office manager, yeah. And then all of a sudden they got five more offices. Oh, we'll just put that person as head of FM.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:43

And you can't. Some of them are great, absolutely, and some of them aren't. But yeah, talking about overpromotion is because they can't find someone easily to replace that role. And all of a sudden, that person there is on big money, yeah, probably well underqualified for the role, but that's a skills shortage, yeah. Just aren't enough, especially in building managers or whatever you want to call them. A massive shortage of of good quality building managers out there.

SPEAKER_07 38:09

Yeah, but isn't isn't that where the the the the meritocracy of the industry is sometimes detrimental to the industry in a way?

SPEAKER_06 38:20

Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's uh it's a tricky one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_07 38:27

Yeah. Because you do say let me explain what I mean by that. So so you will see sometimes where it it it's it's a badge of honour within an organisation to say this individual started as a an X and then they became a Y and then they became a Z. You know, but then sometimes it's it's great to go X, Y, Z. However, if you don't put within those layers the required training, development, and resource to give those individuals the skills, then it then it can become a challenge. And if anything, what we're doing is kind of setting people up to fail. But once again, you know, who's respon who's responsible for that? You know, is it the company that's promoted them, or is it the individual that should be responsible for seeking out that development themselves?

SPEAKER_03 39:09

Yeah, it's a bit of both, isn't it? It's definitely a bit of both. Um, yeah, I mean it's great when companies can promote from within. No, I don't I don't describe it. But it's not always appropriate. No. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

I suppose if companies have that like redundant pool of people, like their job's been made redundant over there, and you're on a level four. And oh look, there's a role over here that's a level four, and you think, yeah, but I was a nurse over there and now I'm head of FM over there. It's like it's the same level, it's the same money. Yeah, we'll just move you over there. It's so you do see that a little bit.

SPEAKER_07 39:43

You'll be fine in three weeks for Lisa.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

But it comes back to that foundation of understanding uh just about FM. I mean, I and you know, I I do get about the training for FM, and you know, there's certain things I think you do need to know how contracts are structured, yeah. You do need to know basic information about building services, yes. Um, you need to think about the strategy, like what what maintenance strategy are we running? Are we SFG20 or we SIPSI or what you know that even that foundation, you don't need to be an engineer, but you need to understand that foundation block to to build upon.

SPEAKER_07 40:22

Well, well, there are real-world repercussions where things can go going back to what you said earlier about compliance and safety, Charlene. You know, when something goes wrong in that kind of environment, then the the waves associated with it, let's say if there's a death, for example, um, you know, or or somebody becomes incredibly ill and the right loan worker systems aren't in place, or that there's real-world consequences to not making the right decision, isn't there? So so and and the industry as well, it's it's not ri what well it's a little bit regulated, isn't it? It's not regulated in the same way perhaps other industries are. Do you think regulation, and I hate saying regulation because I'm very anti-regulation, but do you think regulation is something that could support that? Would that create inward investment from businesses, or do you think it would kill businesses? How do you I'm just finding it out there? I don't know the answer at all. I just think you guys are smarter than I am.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Well, I think there's there's regulation around compliance and health and safety, and there's you know, fire, water, all of those type of things. But to call yourself a facilities manager, you don't, it's not like you're a gas plumber where you've got to do your test. Yeah, it's like well, anyone could be a facilities manager, you just put it on your piece of paper and go, yeah, I'm a facilities manager. There's no there's no test that you have to do to show that you can be one. So it's not regulated in that, you know, like you can't practice law, like you have to be a lawyer and you have to go and do a bar test. There's nothing like that.

SPEAKER_07 41:52

But on the continent in Europe and that it is, isn't it? It is actually a uh isn't it? I'm sure it is, isn't it? Am I right saying that? I'm not aware of that.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

I don't know, yeah. We're not aware of it.

SPEAKER_07 42:01

Have I seen something you guys have?

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Yeah, maybe, maybe maybe it got privy to some extra information we have.

SPEAKER_07 42:07

Maybe maybe it's held in higher regard in the continent, so it's invested in slightly differently. Maybe, maybe that's where I'm getting confused. Um I don't I don't know, I think it would say would it help the industry, do you think, to have I mean, what do you think, Charlene?

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I took the route, as I said, I came through managing agents. Yeah, and that was a good route because they do um have you know lines of courses and things that you have to do in order for you to move to the next level. So you have to do your, let's say, um your, you don't have to do your knee bosh, but you have to your do your iOS.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Um to be able to manage your health and safety in a building. You have to be able to learn about surface charges and be confident knowing your service charges. You have to um do your IWFM. You know, I was doing my BIFM then, but you have to do your IWFM. Um and yeah, so there's certain things that I think um managing agents are pretty good at putting in place um to make sure that there's some sort of safety guardrails around the people that are being employed and their knowledge um and their capabilities.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Um, you also obviously have you know your appraisals and other other sort of ways of them checking your competence throughout the year. So I think that is a good way. Um, but it's when then things are sort of missed, I think that's where you're gonna get all there's budget restraints, or you know, you've got a change of management, you know, several changes of management, you know, yeah, then those things could be missed. Um, or you go for promotion and the person just says, Yeah, actually you'll be fine, you're learning the job, um, and that person's not actually capable of doing the job, that's where you're gonna get, you know, some problems. Um but if you just go to um sort of independently manage a building, um maybe not with a managing agent or with a Bigger sort of establishment, they may not have that in place because they may only have one or two FMs and there's not sort of a benchmark and a sort of um process for what their facilities managers have to do in order to be a facilities manager. So if you go in for a managing agent, let's say you usually go in as an assistant facilities manager, where your responsibility is less and then it grows during the time you're there and you're learning in all of that, and you've got your engineers there, and you've got maybe you know reception security and you're learning about SFG20 and about contracts and about you know different things about cleaning contracts, you'll you're you're learning about people, you're learning about budgets, and you're learning about um sort of health and safety, like everything that encompasses sort of facilities management.

SPEAKER_07 44:49

Yeah, and that that to me, I mean, I I asked those series of questions for a reason because that basically says to me that you know you've got that that in-house outsource model.

SPEAKER_04 44:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 44:59

If you want to go in-house, then the reality is to make sure that you're compliant and accurate, then you need a good consultant, don't you? To be fair, you need that that level of support that can guide you through what is, I guess, that that minefield where things could go wrong.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

You need a good consultant regardless, Mark. No, joking aside, uh absolutely, if you're an in-house model, there's a degree where you become so insular that you lose track of what's going on in the industry, whether it's regulation or innovation, but also outsource models. We see it time and time again where the contractor runs rings around a client because they are more on their game, they're more driven by profit, whatever it might be, and the client doesn't have the time or the expertise to control them. And that's where hopefully, like as well as add value, is that we can be that trusted partner, that middleman, say, hang on, this doesn't quite work, or yeah, or sometimes they're actually client. This actually right here, or they this is a fair deal for you. You might not feel like it's fair, but but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah, so it's pulling on that market experience that we talked about that you you have to be abreast of all of that to think it is right, dip test and think, yeah, that is right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 46:18

So quite a fine line, really, then it is, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

Because you're not just looking at cost or you know, certain factors, you're looking at value really and what makes sense for their business, and so that's how you present it, and then it's ultimately up to the client as to whether they choose to buy it or not. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:35

And is is it how how do you guys how how do you guys keep your clients engaged then? Because I I think that that's that for me would be a challenge for for that's in that sort of consultancy space.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

I think it's about adding value. Yeah. I think if your clients feel you're adding value to them and you're bringing um innovation, different ways of working, and lifting them up, raising the bar as such, I think they'll always come back to you. So, you know, if you advertise for consultancy or whether all of your work comes from word of mouth, ask mine comes from word of mouth. I do a good job on one client's site, and then you know, lo and behold, someone will be talking, and then they'll networking, and then they'll go, Oh, yeah, we use this company. Um, and then all of a sudden you get the call up, and then you go and it's about to me, for me, it's about adding the value and always sharing knowledge so that the client becomes smarter, they can become a smart client. So rather than um being dumbed down by suppliers where suppliers, like you say, run rings around them, it's about bringing the client up and giving them the smarts to be able to look at things and learn and think, hang on, that doesn't feel right over there. Yeah, I need to, you know, to me, it's about adding that value and um teaching them along the way so that they learn and and then rise up. So add in add in the value.

SPEAKER_07 48:01

Yeah. I don't know, I had a really interesting conversation today actually with a with a with a well, a previous client of mine, now a friend, um, and he's talking to me about service charge budgets um and and how he felt that the industry and and people that operated in the industry perhaps really struggled with how to adequately or accurately manage a service charge budget. Is is that something you guys have experienced in the industry? I'm asking because I I don't do that, so I don't know the answer. I just thought it was an interesting thing to say.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Um not necessarily, no. No, no, no, that's not what I mean. No, um not experienced FM so you would know how to manage your budget. Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, time to time people may have queries or issues or may not be able to manage their budget adequately because of other restraints within the business or yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:52

I would say I agree with with Charlene completely. One issue we have seen, this is all post-COVID, is service charge budgets are getting hacked down. Yes. It's been up until 2019, it was a it was a race to the top in terms of quality when we were procuring services, especially in London. And ever since post-COVID, it's been we've struggled to get out of that. This is a cost-based exercise. Yeah, clients can dress it up and say it's not cost-based, but you can see how much more finances play a key role in decision making these days. Yeah, and that's because you know, a lot of our clients, I suspect, are management companies or corporate landlords, and they have service charge budgets that they need to adhere to, but they're under pressure to keep those to a minimum to retain their tenants, and that gets pushed down to the likes of the supply chain. And we have to come to you and say, okay, this is the current spend, you need to find 10% reduction on this, yeah, and then service standards drop and it becomes a vicious circle.

SPEAKER_07 49:57

Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I see that in my end. I mean, obviously, I work within the cleaning sector, so you would have thought post-COVID it would have been one of those industries whereby that was kind of insulated from it because of what COVID was. You know, people for the first time ever saw the value that that I guess um a cleaning company or a cleaning operative can deliver. But yeah, you are very correct. You know, we we we see that across our business. So it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

It's about the the change, and for me, that's where I like the change that I've learned from years of consulting. It's about transforming where you do have those cost restraints, but then you have to go in and you have to work with the client and the supplier to think, well, okay, we used to have the gold service, now we can only afford the silver service. But what what's important to the business? Yeah, you know, how can we slightly change things so that the average person in the office can come in and say it still feels clean, yes, um, you know, but we don't clean the windows every day now, we only clean them once a week. So it's about that transformation of change and trying to get both parties to accept that we have to change for financial reasons, but what's important to the client is sometimes different to what's important to the supplier, and then trying to meet halfway so that you get that better, better fit there.

SPEAKER_03 51:14

Yeah, I agree. I think as a consultant, you need to be flexible because your client may change their um sort of agenda at any time, you know, their business um model, and you need to be able to work with them in terms of achieving what they you know need to achieve. So and you need to be creative and you need to think outside the box. Um, and yeah, it's not always straightforward, and sometimes you can see you have a bit of foresight because you've been there and you've you've done other projects and you can see you know what's likely to work, what's not, but um you know, no one wants to fail, so you need to make sure that um you are putting in the right um measures so that um the client supported and feels happy with the decisions you're making, and you know, even though sometimes it's not um what you would have chosen initially, but it's you're part of a bigger agenda, so it's about being really flexible as a consultant.

SPEAKER_07 52:10

I mean that kind of takes us quite nicely onto things like automation, AI technology, um, how that may well um drive costs down, I suppose. I have this conversation with a lot of people, you know, like while whilst when you manage a building, that there is a lot of people associated with it, you know. Do you think that um those roles may subside over a period of time as a direct result of AI automation and potentially robotics?

SPEAKER_06 52:38

Yes. Yes, um, I think if there's one good thing that's come out of the COVID pandemic, is that it's forced clients to look at innovation technology as a way of driving down cost. And I think that's basically not sustainable to have a massive headcount of security officers, cleaners, that level of operative on contracts where you're struggling to run it at a profit. So we need to think about new ways of delivering these services. It's incumbent on not only the client side, but particularly on the supplier side to come to the table and say, actually, for this building, you don't need 27 cleaners. I think we can do it with 18 plus some robots, plus a new way of doing um the structuring the shift patterns.

SPEAKER_07 53:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:27

It's gonna happen. We can fight redundancies or all that, whatever you want to call it, as much as you want. The most forward-thinking clients will get on board with this quickest and they will make the most money, will save the most money. It's inevitable. We may as well all accept that some level of technology innovation is going to replace blue-collar jobs.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:50

Let's embrace it, let's see how we can add value, do it the right way. If we can implement it slowly enough, then we'll be replacing people who've left rather than making people redundant.

SPEAKER_07 54:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:02

And we'll drive the whole sector forward. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

That kind of uh it addresses the issue about engineers. Like when you think all the new buildings, but the smart technology that is in a building, where it's all almost preempted that something's gonna fail now because it's all monitored so that you can see alarms going off thinking all that chiller's gonna break down or the refrigerator's gonna turn off or whatever. It's it's all monitored so heavily now that instead of having you know four engineers in their vans driving around, someone sitting at a desk now thinking, oh, this is about to fall over, let's just send one engineer now because we know. So I I I do think it it will it does, it already is starting to have that impact through BMS and all of that sort of stuff. It's the other elements of AI that are um like the predictive maintenance and things like that. It's still so young. It's it's you know, and it will be a good few years before there's any substantial information that you can use. I mean, it's like when you go on Google now, you can people do it and you you think, well, that's the same answer that someone else has given me. You're all using the same thing. Where's the innovation and your own natural thinking? So I I do think about that common sense is is slowly depleting because people don't think for themselves now, they just go the last generation when they might find the answer somewhere else, but it's all the same answers are coming back from five different avenues. You think, well, that's not initiative thinking. Um but I do think AI has a place in the in society, and I I do think it's exciting, some of it's really exciting. Um, doing like leases and how you can get a load of information from big documents and things like that around FM and real estate and that sort of stuff, I think is interesting.

SPEAKER_07 55:47

But great with contracts.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:49

Oh my god, that saves so much time with contracts.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

And I just think, does it replace people? I don't think some people have the confidence yet to take it as it stands, like what you get from some of the some of the chatbots and all that sort of stuff. You think, is that real? I don't know. I need to go and find it out myself. So you still, as a consultant, I I still go and find the information. Even though if I use AI for different things, I think, yeah, I still need to go and just double check it myself because I'm not just confident. Because I mean sometimes you get things back and you read it, it doesn't make sense. Like I had a client recently who um lit sent a list of questions uh around an implementation of a of a new building and looking to get some sort of system. And the questions that he sent me, I thought these two questions don't even make sense. And I think he's just gone to AI and got got some information and yeah, there are people out there that'll do it and they're not reading. Yeah, yeah. The first question is the same as the last question, but it's just worded slightly different. And I thought, no, that's not that's not natural human thinking, that's some machines spat out different things, so uh yeah, it it has a place. Um for me, I just think we're not quite there in the FM world for maintenance in stuff yet. Still coming, we're still building the database to of knowledge.

SPEAKER_07 57:06

Anyone seen the Will Smith film iRobot?

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 57:11

Good film though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 57:13

Could happen.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Yeah, could, yeah, in a problem.

SPEAKER_07 57:16

Like without without the machines trying to kill us, but you know what I mean? Like everything leading up to that, I think, is ideal. But if you look at the like the I still think people don't agree with me on this, but I I think in five years' time um we will have uh robots walking around us doing tasks that people used to do. I truly do because the mechanics are there, yeah. Um and the only reason I think this is because there's an old law about computers. I can't remember the name of the law for the life of me. Um, however, um computers will existentially get better and better and better. So as one gets better, the next one gets better by 25 million times or whatever, and that keeps stepping up and up. So if you look at the internet of things, all right, we're all old enough, probably, I think, to remember when we didn't have the internet or it was dial-up connections or anything like that. Took about 25 years from dial up to get to where we are now, all right, and it is way different now to what it was in like '96, for example, right? AI is gonna scale that up hundreds of times. So what we have now, I think will be very similar to like we're bit now, we're at we're at 96. That's where we are with AI, and in five years' time, we'll be at 2025 with AI, and I think that's how different the scale up will be. So if you've got like robots that can do all of the movements we do and all of that stuff, as soon as you get to average general intelligence, AGI, which basically means it can mimic our thought patterns, how we do things, and so on and so forth, you stick that inside a robot's brain, call him Dave, say Dave.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

That's the male version of a Karen.

SPEAKER_07 59:01

Because I call chat GPT Dave. I don't know why, I just do. He's like Dave.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

I just know that Dave is the male version of a Karen.

SPEAKER_07 59:09

But it uh that to me is not I it's not unthinkable. It really isn't. I I genuinely think we will see it within within five years.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yeah, well, it's like the industrial revolution, isn't it? Like when you think back in time, yeah, all of that stuff happened in the space of so many years, like bridges, metal, trains, blah blah blah, all of that stuff. Yeah. Where in that environment, but for AI and robots and that right now, aren't we? Where there's just masses of innovation is happening, and then there'll be a lull, and then not much will happen for another 50, 100 years, and then all of a sudden there'll be a you know, where we're not here anymore. The robots are taking over the world. Yeah, yeah, but there's so many sci-fi movies out there where there's already robots and they're created and they're got emotions and all of those type of things, so it's it's already out there.

SPEAKER_07 59:58

It's just not well, the first ones will be used for nefarious purposes, yeah, yeah, it's just not unbackable. That's where the universal gets driven from, isn't it? That's usually what happens with human beings to be there, which is crackers. Okay, let's talk a little bit about COVID. Um, and and I want to talk about cracking. The only reason I want to talk about COVID is because I'm a little bit annoyed, guys. Yeah, I've been going to my train station on a morning. If I don't get there before half past eight, I can't get a park. This has not happened for the last five years, right? I can only come to the one conclusion that people have decided going back to the bloody office, um, which is ruining my car parking capabilities. Um, I've made that funny. It is true though, I'll probably get a ticket when I get back tonight. But do are you seeing uh a visible increase in people returning to the office now? Yes or not?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:48

I don't think it's as black and white as that. And yes, there's there's almost certainly an uptick in the last year or two, but it's gradual.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:56

And you know, we speak to clients, I'm speaking to someone today, and so what's your working from home policies like we we try and get people in three days a week. Yeah, and I don't find many who are back to five days. I know there's some examples out there in legal or whatever sectors, finance, but for most of our clients in property sector, I would say that they're still operating a hybrid model. Yeah, now that hybrid model might be ramping up rather than them come in whenever you like, it's you need to be in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or whatever. Um, but I still find it funny. You come into town on a Friday, it's still dead. If you come in on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, it's almost pre-pandemic levels. It is, yeah, that's very true.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Because I I come from I live in Cheshire, so I commute down every week.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:44

Oh yeah, you've got no people where you are. You're fine. You never have a way to get a park.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

Now I cannot get a park on on a Tuesday morning. I can't get a park. And even on a 620 train, the the car park is full. Um and the trains are full. Um coming back on a Thursday night is is full. Um the cost of accommodation in London, you come on a Monday night, it's really cheap. Tuesday, Wednesday through the roof. Um, yeah, but it's it's I I think most of my clients they they tend to do like Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, or Monday to Thursday. Most people work at home on Friday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do their admin day at home on a Friday.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:25

That's because Thursday is the new Friday.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Yeah, everybody goes for their after drinks on a Thursday. But you do notice it, I I find it's more busy in London now on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday than it has been. I mean, I loved it in COVID to be fair. I loved coming into London on in through COVID. There was no one, you could walk everywhere. It was beautiful.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:47

It was the city was crazy, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

It was lovely. Accommodation was so cheap. You could stay in the best five-star hotels for like a hundred pounds.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:56

Like I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

It was there was no one on the train.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

It was it was the train.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:04

I was getting a seat, Michael. But that was that was lovely, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:09

My travel spend went from several thousand to a few hundred pounds in 2021. Really? Yeah, yeah. And they call them the the twats, don't they?

SPEAKER_07 1:03:21

But I mean, you might not think this is relevant to a podcast that's trying to entice younger people to join it, but it is because you've got to try and get in, to be fair. But like parking and transport, it is an issue. And you know, even even if you look at the cost, if you were to have a season ticket now, yeah, the cost of that's just extortionate, isn't it? Like the cost of getting in is is so expensive now that people I don't want to put you off, by the way. I do apologize. Um, but it but it there are there are factors to it, aren't they? Do you do do you see there being because there's more of a drive from business now to actually try and get people back in, isn't it? They want that community space and so on and so forth. How do you think people can achieve that based on your experience in the industry?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:04

Companies are being more creative, yeah. For sure. I think even simple things like they're offering breakfasts, they're offering lunches to staff, so when they get in, they haven't got the bother of having to go out and you know, sort of seek food and other bits. Um, also, engagement and um sort of activity in buildings tends to take place now between Tuesdays and Thursdays. So you wouldn't bother getting a pop-up on a Friday because you know that it's going to be probably quite quiet in those buildings. Um, so I think people are getting creative with um sort of the days that they're doing events and stuff in the building. If they've got say yoga or if they've got um someone coming in to sell something, they're they're doing it between Tuesday and Thursday because they know they're the most more popular days.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:51

Um, but then you do have some people who just actually want to come in to London. I think even things like um, I've seen a lot of people, a lot of sort of colleagues doing line biking and stuff like that. Yeah, I've seen a lot of that, yeah. Yeah, so I'd see a lot of people doing bits like that to be able to um get across, you know, the city um and and still use the space. And yeah, I mean, running clubs, there's all sorts that that's taking place now just to sort of get people.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:19

So it's kind of driving a bit of community cohesion that's coming, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:22

Instead of staying home and being alone, um, working along, um, maybe come in and you know, spend at least maybe do um shorter hours. So there's a lot of people that may come in at you know 10 and leave at four because um they want to miss the rush, yeah. Um, but they're coming in and they're still in the office. Yeah. So it's it's I think there's more flexible arrangements now.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

But I think it's for the younger people.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

Like if if you look at younger people that don't who work at home, they don't have that social interaction um with office etiquette. And I know that that to me that's a thing that there is office etiquette, like you know. And if you're working on a project and you're all individually working at home, you don't go to the coffee machine and have a chat about bits and pieces or you know that type of stuff. And I think the the next generation of young workers, they don't they miss out on so much other things that happen in an organization because you know you'll come on your team's call, you'll do your teams call, and then you get off and then you crack on with your work. But they're missing that office interaction about well, what else is happening in the company? What else do I need to do? What's the office etiquette around all that's the governor over there? I need to, you know, bow down and you know, they they're missing out on that. And so it's quite foreign for lots of young people to understand that social way of working in an office environment because they're just at home on their computers, hop on for teams, and then off they go again.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:52

Well, would you argue that work's kind of more following their social parameters though? Because that that's kind of their social element these days, isn't it? Phones, laptops, iPad. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

It kind of does. Well, I mean, I've got two 20-year-olds, um, and and I know what they're like on their social stuff, but equally I think it's I don't think you could say Ella is very similar to when the 20-year-olds do, versus very driven, very driven and very it's because we talk to them all the time. And like for young people, they're very um got a lot of emotional intelligence already because you you talk to them and you teach them things, and you think when you speak to someone, you meet someone, you shake their hand, you look them in the eye, those type of things, and you know, you can do whatever you want. You have to go off and get it, the world's your oyster type stuff. So I I I think if young people have that drive, you know, you can you can they can do the social media, but you know, I've got one daughter that likes social media, and the other one that she only uses it for work purposes, she doesn't use it socially, she's she flicks through it, but she's not a constant scrolling.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:03

But like doom scrolling.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

No, no, neither of them uh are doom scrolls because they've got other interests, but it's about that social aspect where you encourage young people to talk to other people. Like, don't don't be don't be leaving me a voice note because um ring me up, like you know, yeah, that annoys me. That's just you know, just if you're gonna take the time to leave me a voice note, like I just think ring me up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:29

And I think you could you know miss opportunities, like you said, um, not being in the office, not having other projects that maybe you could be part of or contribute towards, or someone that can maybe I've many a time I've been in the office having a conversation, and um I've said, you know, I need to get hold of this person or this needs, and then someone else's gone, oh yeah, I know that person, let me contact them, or you know, vice versa.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

It's about that relationship building again.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:52

It comes all back to that where you get that opportunity to build relationships with people that you work with, and I I also think as well, it's it's the ability to learn through failure because if you're in the office on a right, you're gonna mess up sometimes, you're gonna say the wrong thing, you're gonna upset someone. You th these things happen, don't they? And sometimes you don't learn unless you fail. I think you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:13

I think just to pick up on what Deborah was saying, if if you're a young person who wants to get into FM or any sector really, the best bit of advice I can give them is move yourself to London for a few years. Yeah, just be embedded in the culture, which doesn't necessarily mean you have to be in the office five days, it could be that you're in the office some of the time, most of the time. Yeah, but it means you get to go out on a Wednesday night, have a few drinks, mingle with people in your network in your sector in a more casual setting. And that's where you learn so much. Well, certainly where I learned so much when I was developing in in FM in procurement.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:50

Yeah, that's a very good point, Astley, because that then as well, I suppose you haven't got as far to go to get home. Um you can be into work the next day and so on and so forth. And you lose the safety net.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

Yeah, if it's a late night, you know, you miss that, miss that last pass.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:09

The overhum's a bit a bit state for me these days, guys. I live in Kent now, so go.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:13

Well, you take that safety net away and it forces you into these positions that you might not otherwise be in. It makes you go out and be sociable because otherwise you're back to you know your one-bed studio or something in the outskirts of London, and you may as well stay out for a few drinks afterwards or whatever you want to do. Um, whereas if you've got to catch a train at six o'clock because you're two hours away, it really makes that more difficult.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:37

Yeah, do you know what? That's what what a sage piece of advice, actually. I think that that's really, really good advice. All right, guys. Well, listen, we've literally got a few minutes left. I bet it didn't feel like only a few. I bet he didn't feel like an hour. Okay, listen, tell it, I want you all to just give us a quick introduction about your business um before you go. Just tell us who you are, what you do, and where you come from. Charlene.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:57

Charlene Rosan. Um, I'm from London, and my business is around health and safety compliance and property management. Um my prop my company is called SPR2 Properties, and you can catch me on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:11

Yeah, and I I can vouch for Charlene, she's she's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Hi, I'm Deborah Watson and I work for Notice Solutions. Uh, we're a consultancy firm for facilities management doing strategic procurement, uh, contract reviews, CAFM implementations, um, anything FM related, basically, we we touch base on um, based in the Northwest, but we work predominantly in London for a lot of London side clients. So uh we do spend quite a lot of time here at networking and socialising and uh out and about in the town because London is the best city in the world.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:49

It is without doubt. And I vouch for Nordis as well. I think you're starting to see a trend here, people.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:55

Um Darien Jay, I run Vixus Property Advisory. Uh, we generally work with corporate real estate clients to procure services where they don't have in-house expertise or time to do it themselves.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:08

Fantastic. And I vouched for Darion as well. Another another fantastic business operating within within the consultancy sphere. All right, guys, that brings us to the end. How did you find it? Did you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:19

Yeah, it's good. Really good. Did it go quicker than you think? That went so quick, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:25

I told you it would, didn't I?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:26

How how how long was it until the nerves kind of and you were all right?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

Three, four minutes. Really? Yeah, not long.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:33

And then it just became a chat between. Yeah, as soon as you start talking stop talking about it, so that's good. All right, guys. Well, listen, uh thank you ever so much for joining us on the show today, Discovering Consultancy. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure. Um, and yeah, we'll we'll see you again soon. All right, guys. Um, if any of you require any consultancy services, whether it's for your business or you know somebody that needs it, um then I know that Charlene, um Deborah, and also Darion are all available on LinkedIn. You can reach out to them all individually. But also on that note, if you were looking for some advice, um, I'm sure that they would be more than happy to potentially mentor you or give you anything that you need. But that brings us to the end of another episode of the Facilities Management Exchange and a really good one as well. So, as ever, if you can't be good, be bad. Bye bye.